Standards vs Reality

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
lesterb

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by lesterb »

RZehr wrote:If you would have asked me a few months ago if our church allowed western wear, I would have said no. Growing up, I instinctively knew that cowboy clothes were just something we didn't do. I assumed it was part of our written standards.
In the last few years, I knew a few people wore cowboy boots, but I figured they either didn't know they shouldn't, or they were just doing it anyway. I found out a few months ago that our standard says nothing about western wear. These people were newcomers, and had no way of knowing that we traditionally didn't wear such things.
You don't need to be NMB for that to happen. When we moved to Alberta we were members for several years when the ministers wives called my wife and daughter in for an interview about something. We had no idea that we were doing something wrong. They said, "well we just thought you'd catch on."

Funny thing was, my wife went to one of her good friends in the church and she didn't know either that this was expected of people. So maybe it was just expected of newcomers?
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Josh

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Josh »

It's really hit or miss to figure things out.

Tucked in shirts required? Who knows. Logo shirts okay? Maybe.

Is it Ok to wear athletic shoes to church? Probably not. Wednesday night? Who knows.

Can you ride a sport bike around? Sure, but don't show up on Wednesday night on one.

It's a minefield of unwritten rules and expectations half the membership is knowingly violating.
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Wade

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Wade »

Hats Off wrote:
temporal1 wrote:Hats Off, i just want to take a moment to say how much i appreciate your posts. you have a gift for communicating a perspective that is not often available to (us, who are NMB.) so helpful, and important. it takes time to understand in context, and in perspective. life is a journey, eventually, a sum of all parts; somehow, no two identical.

so glad you found this forum and are willing to share. :)
Unfortunately, one of the reasons I have the perspective that I do, is because of some significant disappointments we have had with our own church. We have also walked fairly closely with several NMBs who spent some time with us but left without having membership. And then like several others on the forum I am an "older" man who has experienced a lot of life.
I agree with t1.

The reason I even joined this discussion is because I foresee many more disappointments if the reality of how NMB are treated as compared MB isn't made known to NMB's.
Being raised atheist I had no idea churches had so much turmoil in them. I believed it was truly different than compared to how I was raised. I was and still feel that I am naive, ignorant, stupid, immature, or whatever you would like to call it.
Standards aside getting treated continually in suspicion is confusing. No newcomer is worthy but Christ is.

I hope this brings awareness rather than looking like finger pointing so that others can be helped and encouraged.
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Neto

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Neto »

I haven't said anything here yet, or unless I did, and don't recall. Anyway, even though I am from a Mennonite background, I was not from a conservative background. (Using the definition that is commonly meant here. In the MB conference, we used the term 'conservative' with am almost completely different meaning. We used it to mean theologically conservative, and it is used here to mean 'preserving the old ways of dressing & doing things'. But they aren't even the really old ways of dressing & doing things, but just for the Eastern American Amish & Mennonite old ways.)

But I don't want to argue about that, I just wanted to say that I understand the responses of what you call NMB people, because I have felt the same way. I came into this originally because I WANTED to be different from the large society, and I also thought that doing these distinctive things would somehow help me in my Christian walk. To me, now, the most important part is the belonging part - belonging to a close group. The part about NOT belonging to that other group is not so important, at least in terms of strictly outward appearance. (I'm not talking about wearing shorts & t-shirts - I never have, and never will. I'm referring to stuff like straight cuts & broad falls in place of common but modest clothing.)
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:
Dan Z wrote:Their move toward plainness is front and center in their lives, and each life choice is significant because it represents a major change for them.
Exactly, it is was a major change and adjustment. We were raised in the church, and were not used to another set of standards outside of the Bible. We came to the Mennonite church because of the baptismal belief, divorce & remarriage views, and a people that were trying to do the will of God.
Josh wrote: It would be good to tell newcomers what is actually expected from them. "Don't worry about changing anything, just do what the Lord tells you" isn't really an acceptable answer.
We actually suggested that the church have someone from a NMB sit in on the proving meetings or just be a guide, for others after us. We felt it would be really beneficial to avoid the confusion we went through. As far as we know, they have not done it yet.
In ours the entire congregation is in the meeting where the church covenant is revised, including us NMB's. I was happy our views on how to make it understandable to people unfamiliar with conservative mennonite practices were taken quite seriously. Sometimes the standard is not the problem, simply how it is written down and explained.

I agree that fewer standards, consistently observed is better than a catalog of them that went by the wayside years ago.

J.M.
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temporal1

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by temporal1 »

From Page 1 -
Wade wrote:
Wade wrote:
Wade wrote:When I have just simply asked about this reality that no one likes to talk about - I was told that I was judgemental.
Disillusionment is to be an eventual expected reality for the newcomer that is sincere and trusting...
temporal1 wrote: ultimately, it's important and constructive to really-really understand that humans are humans, and to always keep that humility.
Does this mean that we just shouldn't trust them or take their word for what they say?

This is what I mean - is that I trusted people and they just weren't honest about themselves.
Seems like a lonely way to live to just not trust anyone...
i'm glad you asked about this, i'll try to clarify the best i can. :)

what i mean about "humans are humans" is that we all CAN BE TRUSTED - to be human.
this includes ourselves. we can+do disappoint ourselves. this is what i think of "with humility."

when we sincerely keep Jesus at center, this is our one reliable "buffer" to weather our own and one another's human frailties.

God designed us to be social beings, scriptures tell us about the importance of church, community, neighbors, family - and, enemies! in scriptures, enemies get special attention.

it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to come from an atheist background.
altho, neither did i come from an Anabaptist background (at least, i don't know my family history with Anabaptists, it was not discussed.) i was not comfortable in church until i was a married adult with young children.

thankfully, at that time, we found a church that was a good fit for each of us for a number of years. during that time, for the first (and only) time in my life, i felt we had a "home church." it was pretty good sized and active, not big; i believe many felt this way about it. special leadership. there was a good mix of ages, the young people were active and involved in church and community projects.

i did not know of Anabaptist "brotherhood" thinking until learning on this forum -
i like it a lot. :)
i can see where some groups could have an ideal brotherhood situation, and, i can also see potential pitfalls (as described now+then.) sometimes annoying/confusing, sometimes, serious problems.

gifted, or, inspired, leadership does not "grow on trees."
one message i hope i relayed to our children was, when you are blessed with good leadership, appreciate it! don't take it for granted. learn from it.

possibly, i might put more importance on leadership than CM's? .. i'm not sure.
i do believe in headship order; i've witnessed how people thrive under (inspired) leadership.
however, there is a pitfall to overly blame leaders when members/laity have responsibility, too.
the pieces must come together to create an optimum outcome.

i do believe as long as we are seeking, God is leading.
sometimes we understand His answers+guidance more easily than at other times. but, we can be certain He is overseeing all, using all for His ultimate plan. we are instructed to live in faith.

i try not to regret past experiences for this reason! no matter how awful or awkward, God uses all to bring His closer to Him. the trials are part of the whole.

Wade, i have had the hardest time trying to figure out how to respond! :?
this reads very "jumbled" to me. i'll go ahead+post, maybe something of use is in-there? :)

i've taken so long to write, now i have others' posts to go back+read!
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Josh

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by Josh »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:In ours the entire congregation is in the meeting where the church covenant is revised, including us NMB's. I was happy our views on how to make it understandable to people unfamiliar with conservative mennonite practices were taken quite seriously. Sometimes the standard is not the problem, simply how it is written down and explained.

I agree that fewer standards, consistently observed is better than a catalog of them that went by the wayside years ago.

J.M.
JM, I feel this is something your conference generally gets right, at least based on the congregations and ministers I've known. Of particular note is how your conference hasn't had rapid change over the last 20 years.

Part of this is, I think, because of the zeal I see in Keystone to reach out to the lost and to desire to serve the children in your communities with Christian education.

Incidentally when I spent time visiting one of your congregations for a few weeks I felt I knew exactly what was expected, felt comfortable asking, and really didn't have any awkward faux pas. Instead, a lot of time was spent doing useful work and also having a lot of just plain fun with the other young people there.
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appleman2006

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by appleman2006 »

It has been good for me to read this discussion and to actually have a chance to try and understand how it perhaps feels to be a new person coming into a group. I have experienced this in a small way at one time when I lived in a different area for almost a year but I kind of wrote what I experienced there as a quirk to that community. Now I am thinking this could actually be more common and may even at times be the experience of those that might be new comers in the churches I associate with.
My experience was being taken aside by one of the parents (I was the school teacher for that year) and being told a whole list of things that were expected of church members in that area. I was somewhat shocked because I was boarding in the bishop's home and nothing had been said that I was out of line nor did I see many of these things being practiced by the group as a whole. I realize now that it was simply a father that wanted the teacher to be a good example for some of his own boys who were my students but at the time I was pretty confused.
I think for a lot of reasons that I too can identify with RZehr as a "blue blood" . I do not think this makes me any better than anyone else. But it may give me the ability to look at this from a different perspective than some of you simply because we understand the makeup and the history of our groups from inside out.
For starters I would not want to be a part of a group where everyone did things exactly the same or where everyone looked exactly alike. Perhaps that shocks some of you but let me try to explain why.
From my experience when this has been attempted several things happen, perhaps not immediately but over a generation or two.
1. An attempt to do this causes an environment of divisiveness and splinters over the tiniest things. And the splits and divisions never stop. Rather they snowball and happen with ever increasing speed. No one who knows the history of the conservative movement within Mennonites can deny this.
2. As has been alluded to, leaders often are aware of differences of opinions but are reluctant to officially support change even when they know the majority might be in agreement of the change. They see it as potentially causing another split or they think that they will be viewed as the one that let down the standard in their watch. Our churches are littered with wrecks of leaders who have bravely tried to negotiate change and have suffered major personal grief and loss for doing so.
3. Too many fences can actually have the effect of lowering the degree of spirituality and holiness among a group. People start to rely on the fences to keep them and their children in check and with time they are doing the things not because they have any personal convictions about it but rather to fit in. And if enough of them decided that they actually fit in better by not following the letter of the law than guess what happens. This problem is magnified IMO in the last few years due to the fact that churches are finding it is almost impossible to build the fences high enough to keep those in that do not want to be kept in.

From my perspective I think groups that do a good job of keeping their rules and regulations up to date and that are very open about changes with the congregation ensuring the things that are being required are truly the will and conviction of the majority of the congregation will be much better off. But I recognize that in a culture that almost always views change as either being more legalistic or in the other case regressive and a sure sign of worldliness, that this is hard to do.

I am always amazed at how hard a line people will tow on issues, insisting that nothing changes when in fact they themselves are not in the same church that their parents or grandparents were in. If they are honest they will often have to admit that their own convictions have changed on some things over the years.

The idea that I can only worship or get along with those that think and do exactly what I do is the height of spiritual pride and arrogance and has nothing to do with unity. Unity as I see it is learning to love and appreciate those that are different from you. I do appreciate my heritage. It has helped me in many ways. But I am not adverse to talking about where we are less than perfect which we are in many areas.

And I for one am appalled at some of the stories on here where people that come into our places of worship feel like they are expected to immediately fit into all areas of our culture in order to feel loved and accepted. That is very wrong and extremely shameful. Frankly it makes me cry.
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MaxPC

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by MaxPC »

appleman2006 wrote:It has been good for me to read this discussion and to actually have a chance to try and understand how it perhaps feels to be a new person coming into a group. I have experienced this in a small way at one time when I lived in a different area for almost a year but I kind of wrote what I experienced there as a quirk to that community. Now I am thinking this could actually be more common and may even at times be the experience of those that might be new comers in the churches I associate with.
My experience was being taken aside by one of the parents (I was the school teacher for that year) and being told a whole list of things that were expected of church members in that area. I was somewhat shocked because I was boarding in the bishop's home and nothing had been said that I was out of line nor did I see many of these things being practiced by the group as a whole. I realize now that it was simply a father that wanted the teacher to be a good example for some of his own boys who were my students but at the time I was pretty confused.
I think for a lot of reasons that I too can identify with RZehr as a "blue blood" . I do not think this makes me any better than anyone else. But it may give me the ability to look at this from a different perspective than some of you simply because we understand the makeup and the history of our groups from inside out.
For starters I would not want to be a part of a group where everyone did things exactly the same or where everyone looked exactly alike. Perhaps that shocks some of you but let me try to explain why.
From my experience when this has been attempted several things happen, perhaps not immediately but over a generation or two.
1. An attempt to do this causes an environment of divisiveness and splinters over the tiniest things. And the splits and divisions never stop. Rather they snowball and happen with ever increasing speed. No one who knows the history of the conservative movement within Mennonites can deny this.
2. As has been alluded to, leaders often are aware of differences of opinions but are reluctant to officially support change even when they know the majority might be in agreement of the change. They see it as potentially causing another split or they think that they will be viewed as the one that let down the standard in their watch. Our churches are littered with wrecks of leaders who have bravely tried to negotiate change and have suffered major personal grief and loss for doing so.
3. Too many fences can actually have the effect of lowering the degree of spirituality and holiness among a group. People start to rely on the fences to keep them and their children in check and with time they are doing the things not because they have any personal convictions about it but rather to fit in. And if enough of them decided that they actually fit in better by not following the letter of the law than guess what happens. This problem is magnified IMO in the last few years due to the fact that churches are finding it is almost impossible to build the fences high enough to keep those in that do not want to be kept in.

From my perspective I think groups that do a good job of keeping their rules and regulations up to date and that are very open about changes with the congregation ensuring the things that are being required are truly the will and conviction of the majority of the congregation will be much better off. But I recognize that in a culture that almost always views change as either being more legalistic or in the other case regressive and a sure sign of worldliness, that this is hard to do.

I am always amazed at how hard a line people will tow on issues, insisting that nothing changes when in fact they themselves are not in the same church that their parents or grandparents were in. If they are honest they will often have to admit that their own convictions have changed on some things over the years.

The idea that I can only worship or get along with those that think and do exactly what I do is the height of spiritual pride and arrogance and has nothing to do with unity. Unity as I see it is learning to love and appreciate those that are different from you. I do appreciate my heritage. It has helped me in many ways. But I am not adverse to talking about where we are less than perfect which we are in many areas.

And I for one am appalled at some of the stories on here where people that come into our places of worship feel like they are expected to immediately fit into all areas of our culture in order to feel loved and accepted. That is very wrong and extremely shameful. Frankly it makes me cry.
:clap: :up:
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TeleBodyofChrist

Re: Standards vs Reality

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

appleman2006 wrote:It has been good for me to read this discussion and to actually have a chance to try and understand how it perhaps feels to be a new person coming into a group. I have experienced this in a small way at one time when I lived in a different area for almost a year but I kind of wrote what I experienced there as a quirk to that community. Now I am thinking this could actually be more common and may even at times be the experience of those that might be new comers in the churches I associate with.
My experience was being taken aside by one of the parents (I was the school teacher for that year) and being told a whole list of things that were expected of church members in that area. I was somewhat shocked because I was boarding in the bishop's home and nothing had been said that I was out of line nor did I see many of these things being practiced by the group as a whole. I realize now that it was simply a father that wanted the teacher to be a good example for some of his own boys who were my students but at the time I was pretty confused.
I think for a lot of reasons that I too can identify with RZehr as a "blue blood" . I do not think this makes me any better than anyone else. But it may give me the ability to look at this from a different perspective than some of you simply because we understand the makeup and the history of our groups from inside out.
For starters I would not want to be a part of a group where everyone did things exactly the same or where everyone looked exactly alike. Perhaps that shocks some of you but let me try to explain why.
From my experience when this has been attempted several things happen, perhaps not immediately but over a generation or two.
1. An attempt to do this causes an environment of divisiveness and splinters over the tiniest things. And the splits and divisions never stop. Rather they snowball and happen with ever increasing speed. No one who knows the history of the conservative movement within Mennonites can deny this.
2. As has been alluded to, leaders often are aware of differences of opinions but are reluctant to officially support change even when they know the majority might be in agreement of the change. They see it as potentially causing another split or they think that they will be viewed as the one that let down the standard in their watch. Our churches are littered with wrecks of leaders who have bravely tried to negotiate change and have suffered major personal grief and loss for doing so.
3. Too many fences can actually have the effect of lowering the degree of spirituality and holiness among a group. People start to rely on the fences to keep them and their children in check and with time they are doing the things not because they have any personal convictions about it but rather to fit in. And if enough of them decided that they actually fit in better by not following the letter of the law than guess what happens. This problem is magnified IMO in the last few years due to the fact that churches are finding it is almost impossible to build the fences high enough to keep those in that do not want to be kept in.

From my perspective I think groups that do a good job of keeping their rules and regulations up to date and that are very open about changes with the congregation ensuring the things that are being required are truly the will and conviction of the majority of the congregation will be much better off. But I recognize that in a culture that almost always views change as either being more legalistic or in the other case regressive and a sure sign of worldliness, that this is hard to do.

I am always amazed at how hard a line people will tow on issues, insisting that nothing changes when in fact they themselves are not in the same church that their parents or grandparents were in. If they are honest they will often have to admit that their own convictions have changed on some things over the years.

The idea that I can only worship or get along with those that think and do exactly what I do is the height of spiritual pride and arrogance and has nothing to do with unity. Unity as I see it is learning to love and appreciate those that are different from you. I do appreciate my heritage. It has helped me in many ways. But I am not adverse to talking about where we are less than perfect which we are in many areas.

And I for one am appalled at some of the stories on here where people that come into our places of worship feel like they are expected to immediately fit into all areas of our culture in order to feel loved and accepted. That is very wrong and extremely shameful. Frankly it makes me cry.
I really appreciate this.
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