Profiling, Races & Racism in America (SPLIT from Freedoms...)

[Hats Off]

I still think if a Canadian police officer had fired three shots through a closed garage door under those circumstances, he would have some explaining to do. He would be considered a rogue officer.

[Dan Z]

Anecdotes can be used as illustrations of racism or not, and can be challenged or questioned one way or another. Macro-level statistics are harder to discredit however. Here are just a few that point to disparities in the way society relates to people of color vs white people:

• Black children are 3X more likely to be suspended from school than white children.
• Black minors are 18X more likely to be sentenced as adults than white minors.
• Black college grads are twice as likely to be unemployed out of college than whites, and if you have a black sounding name on a resume, you have to send out 50% more resumes to get a call-back.
• Whites are twice as likely to own homes as blacks, and white families' average net worth are about 10X the average net worth of black families.
• Balck home buyers are shown almost 20% less homes than similar white buyers, and are turned down for home loans almost 3X as often.
• Black drivers are pulled over 30% more often, are 3X more likely to be searched, and 4X more likely to be threatened with force than white drivers.
• If a black person kills a white person they are twice as likely to receive the death penalty as when the race roles are reversed.

For whatever the many reasons (slavery, broken homes, poverty, historic lack of access to economic opportunity & education, and yes - implicit and explicit racism), the deck is stacked against people of color. To put it bluntly, to deny that is to live in a (white?) fantasy-world. This country is a land of opportunity for all, but some (particularly those with darker skin) have to work harder to achieve it than others.

There are lot's of ways to respond to this - but having the empathy to recognize the societal and individual bias most folks of color face is a good starting place. I honestly suspect that, because of personal relationships, those on MN who live or have lived in cross-cultural settings are more likely to understand these things at the heart level than others who have a more "mono-toned" circle of close friends & experience.

[Jennifer]

The liberal conclusion always seems to be that it's someone else's fault that blacks have all these problems. Stop blaming the white people for the problems blacks bring upon themselves because of their own bad behavior. They have brought their problems upon themselves because of their own bad behavior. They are not a kind and gentle people. They are inherently violent. It is their nature! Did God tell you to feel sorry for the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Amorites.
No! He knew what they were and how they behaved. He commanded Israel to cleanse the land of them.
But liberals have a totally ungodly mindset. They blame the victims and have pity on those who refuse to stop disobeying God, those who murder and steal and rape for the thrill of it!
What is wrong with you? Did you ever think that God is going to deal with you someday for perpetuating the continued violence that your way of thinking and acting brings about. For preventing the justice from coming about that desperately needs to come about for peace to finally exist here.

[Bootstrap]

The full details of the incident are that the man pointed a gun at the police as he slammed the garage door shut.

As far as I can tell, the officer claimed that he saw the man had a gun, he never claimed that he pointed the gun at the police or anyone else or threatened anyone with violence. The family said that he did not have a gun in his hand, it was in his pocket. When his body was found, there was a gun in his back pocket, unloaded and unfired. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the jury thought he had pointed a gun at the police, this was not reported as part of their findings.

I don't know if this would have come out differently had he been white. But this started out as a dispute over noise with a man who was drunk, and it wound up with a man who was dead. That kind of thing is happening way too often.

[Bootstrap]

The liberal conclusion always seems to be that it's someone else's fault that blacks have all these problems. Stop blaming the white people for the problems blacks bring upon themselves because of their own bad behavior.

I don't think anyone here is doing that. On the other hand, I do think our society as a whole should want equal opportunity for everyone - equally good schools, equally good policing, equal grace for minor legal infractions like marijuana possession or speeding, etc. I don't think we have that. I don't think that's the fault of any one ethnic group, this is the kind of thing we should work on together.

But the deeper issue is about the Kingdom of God, not secular policy.

They have brought their problems upon themselves because of their own bad behavior. They are not a kind and gentle people. They are inherently violent. It is their nature! Did God tell you to feel sorry for the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Amorites.
No! He knew what they were and how they behaved. He commanded Israel to cleanse the land of them.

Are you a kind and gentle person? Do you show that in your words? Are you willing to accept the work that Jesus has done to break down the walls between peoples? Are you willing to embrace blacks the same way that Jewish Christians had to embrace Samaritans and Greeks, people they hated?

Here's where we are headed:

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

The Old Testament divisions are no longer relevant:

But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Christians are no longer about whites versus blacks or Jews versus Greeks. We are one people:

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

It's easy to get lost in ethnic or political tribalism, but if we do that, we also lose track of the Kingdom of God.

[Dan Z]

The liberal conclusion always seems to be that it's someone else's fault that blacks have all these problems. Stop blaming the white people for the problems blacks bring upon themselves because of their own bad behavior.

...

But liberals have a totally ungodly mindset. They blame the victims and have pity on those who refuse to stop disobeying God, those who murder and steal and rape for the thrill of it!
What is wrong with you? Did you ever think that God is going to deal with you someday for perpetuating the continued violence that your way of thinking and acting brings about. For preventing the justice from coming about that desperately needs to come about for peace to finally exist here.

Jennifer -

• 1) I don't consider myself a "liberal" (nor conservative for that matter) but in any case, I've found that political labeling and pigeon-holing is not a helpful way to move forward when discussing ideas and beliefs.
  
  2) Regardless of color, I believe we are all responsible before God and society for our actions. Sin is sin, wrong is wrong, regardless of who commits the sin. I never have argued otherwise.
  
  3) My intent was not to blame "white people for black people's wrongs", but to recognize that, for many reasons, there has been and continues to be an inherent unfairness within society as it relates to people of color. In many ways, all things being equal, statistics show that people of color don't get a fair shake in our society. And history shows that they seldom have.
  
  4) My way of thinking and acting when it comes to my non-white friends is to respect each of them as dearly beloved children of God, and to try hard to understand their unique situation - to weep with those who weep, morn with those who morn, to bear my brother's burdens, to do unto others as I would have them do unto me. I certainly fall short of the way of Christ, and will rely on grace in the end - like all of us.

They have brought their problems upon themselves because of their own bad behavior. They are not a kind and gentle people. They are inherently violent. It is their nature! Did God tell you to feel sorry for the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Amorites. No! He knew what they were and how they behaved. He commanded Israel to cleanse the land of them.

I don't know how to respond to this but to say that this represents both harsh judgement, and even harsher solutions. Question: Do you honestly think that our black neighbors are, "by their nature" more evil and sinful than our white neighbors? If so, what is it about "their nature" that makes this the case?

[mike]

For whatever the many reasons (slavery, broken homes, poverty, historic lack of access to economic opportunity & education, and yes - implicit and explicit racism), the deck is stacked against people of color.

African Americans and crime statistics
The FBI's Uniform Crime Reports reports that although whites are arrested for the majority of all crimes, African Americans are most likely to be overrepresented in arrests. For example, in 1993, African Americans comprised 31 percent of total arrests yet constituted 12 percent of the population. A study found that in 1979, 80% of the racial disparity in prison populations was accounted for by African Americans committing more crime, but by 2008, another study by Michael Tonry and Matthew Melewski found that this percentage had decreased to 61%.[6]

Incarceration for violent crimes
In 1994, African Americans accounted for 45 percent and 50 percent of crimes for murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. In general, African Americans are approximately six times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than are whites. African Americans are also most overrepresented in robbery in 1993, comprising 62 percent of arrestees. African Americans accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites while blacks account for less than 15% of people living in the United States.[7][8][9]

Incarceration for drug related crimes
For drug related offenses, from 1965 through the early 1980s, African Americans were approximately twice as likely as whites to be arrested. However, with the War on Drugs in the 1970s, African American arrest rates skyrocketed, while white arrest rates increased only slightly. By the end of the 1980s, African Americans were more than five times more likely than whites to be arrested for drug-related offenses.[10] Blumstein argues that as national self-report data showed that drug use was actually declining among both African Americans and Whites, it is highly unlikely that these race differences in arrest rates represent "real" patterns of drug use. Instead these crime statistics reflect the government's targeting of only specific types of drug use and trafficking.[11] Furthermore, although the "black drug user" stereotype is heavily associated with young African Americans, recent studies show that African American young people are less likely to use illegal drugs than other racial groups in the U.S.[12] Michelle Alexander furthers the argument that the disproportionate mass incarceration of African Americans in drug-related offenses is caused by racial bias within the criminal justice system, terming this phenomenon as "The New Jim Crow", in a book of the same name. Alexander claims that racial beliefs and stereotypes as a direct result of a media saturated with images of black criminals have obviously and predictably created a sharp disparity in the rates at which blacks and whites are subject to encounters with law enforcement.

Why are blacks being arrested and incarcerated at higher rates than other racial groups? Is there any possibility that it is because they actually commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups? Or is it solely because of racial bias in law enforcement and the judicial system?

[silentreader]

Why are blacks being arrested and incarcerated at higher rates than other racial groups? Is there any possibility that it is because they actually commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups? Or is it solely because of racial bias in law enforcement and the judicial system?

Mike - I think your stats prove that it is both. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

So...if it is both, then half of that equation (that black people are targeted and sentenced unfairly relative to their white counterparts) is unfair to law-abiding black citizens. Can we get there together?

Is some of that influenced by the perception and/or expectation that "they commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups"?

[Bootstrap]

Why are blacks being arrested and incarcerated at higher rates than other racial groups? Is there any possibility that it is because they actually commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups? Or is it solely because of racial bias in law enforcement and the judicial system?

Mike - I think your stats prove that it is both. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

That's my conclusion. I know Mike does prison ministry. When I did prison ministry, it was important to focus on helping men take responsibility for their own actions and their own lives, but also to just focus on loving them as people. If racial bias in law enforcement and the judicial system came up, we would acknowledge that it exists, but keep pointing to the need to take responsibility for their own actions.

But if you have ever worked with children in the inner city, you also see some of the reasons that people who grow up there might be more likely to commit crimes. Other people growing up in the same setting might not come out much different, on average. We like to talk about equal opportunity as though it is an established fact. I don't think it is.

[Bootstrap]

So...if it is both, then half of that equation (that black people are targeted and sentenced unfairly relative to their white counterparts) is unfair to law-abiding black citizens. Can we get there together?

Is some of that influenced by the perception and/or expectation that "they commit crimes at a higher rate than other groups"?

Sure, but it's still a problem.

Suppose someone accused you or me of rape or domestic violence. There's a perception / expectation that men are more likely to do these things, and it is statistically true.

But if people just assume that males are guilty or that our guilt matters more than the guilt of a woman who does the same thing, we would feel like the system is rigged against us. And that feeling that they are more likely to be blamed and likely to be punished more harshly adds to the problem.

Sometimes just being a large black man is enough to make people around you nervous. Think what that feels like.