SORRY - I messed up the quotations on this when I cut out a separate part of the discussion, to reply to only one of Josh's responses.
(No additional response, just a quotation correction.)
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:15 pm
I mean that the O/O now have the Beachy mindset. Which is to allow rogues to do whatever they want and abuse church institutions to get away with it.
When I first came around here (first visit Fall 1982, moved here end of Summer 1983) it wasn't like that, at least to my perception. (I had never been in any area where there were Beachy, so I didn't have a reference point. Except perhaps I might have been in the same areas in central Kansas, but they were "invisible" to me - my relatives and MB friends there simply not moving in the same circles at all.)
When I moved here, the Beachy bishops were all still from my father-in-law's generation (he was born in 1921), and they were also all former Amish who had left the Old Order before the formation of the New Order. They had all left because they had come to genuine faith, a lot because of the things they saw and experienced in CPS during WWII. They had become involved in a Bible study movement among the younger Amish, and were either excommunicated or pushed to leave by the controlling bishops at that time. Anyway, when I first came here, the "rules" about no radios, etc. were still very closely followed. Women were required to wear the black hose, and open toe shoes were not approved, even with the stockings. Change really speed up after the older bishops, those who had experienced somewhat more "dramatic" conversions out of spiritual unawareness, either passed away or left the office to younger men who had more-so grown up in the Beachy church. This was also a time of social upheaval in the larger culture, and they were also of such age that they had been involved in alternate service during the Vietnam "Conflict". (I missed that by about a 12 or 18 months, the draft, I mean.)
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Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:54 amEPMC in the present day is primarily loosening because bishops simply do stuff they want to do and nobody can tell them no. The rank and file hasn’t started using Internet for example, but the bishops just use it anyway on their businesses.
I don't think that EPMC bishops do things with internet that they don't allow the laity to do.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:54 amEPMC in the present day is primarily loosening because bishops simply do stuff they want to do and nobody can tell them no. The rank and file hasn’t started using Internet for example, but the bishops just use it anyway on their businesses.
I don't think that EPMC bishops do things with internet that they don't allow the laity to do.
This is how it was told to me:
At a certain point, no Internet use was allowed at all. Some bishops started using it anyway at their businesses. The laity is generally speaking unable to object to a bishop violating church rules.
Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:54 amEPMC in the present day is primarily loosening because bishops simply do stuff they want to do and nobody can tell them no. The rank and file hasn’t started using Internet for example, but the bishops just use it anyway on their businesses.
I don't think that EPMC bishops do things with internet that they don't allow the laity to do.
This is how it was told to me:
At a certain point, no Internet use was allowed at all. Some bishops started using it anyway at their businesses. The laity is generally speaking unable to object to a bishop violating church rules.
I heard a similar story and was told that’s why a group broke off from them.
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Soloist, but I hate singing alone Soloist, but my wife posts with me Soloist, but I believe in community Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:24 am
It doesn't happen in most ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches.
Not sure I agree. I am told that is how EPMC loosened up over the internet issue. People were using loopholes and work-a-rounds (or just kept their mouth shut).
EPMC in the present day is primarily loosening because bishops simply do stuff they want to do and nobody can tell them no. The rank and file hasn’t started using Internet for example, but the bishops just use it anyway on their businesses.
I ran your post by an Eastern colleague of mine and she said it sounds like a tall tale and said your statement should be reversed. The rank and file were using it, and then the issue went to the higher ups.
And if they are loosening, I think it's due to losing the anti-tech members to the Apps. As for WF, the anti-tech members aren't leaving. Last I knew they were verbally bickering in SS and such.
AndersonD wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:06 am
I ran your post by an Eastern colleague of mine and she said it sounds like a tall tale and said your statement should be reversed. The rank and file were using it, and then the issue went to the higher ups.
And if they are loosening, I think it's due to losing the anti-tech members to the Apps. As for WF, the anti-tech members aren't leaving. Last I knew they were verbally bickering in SS and such.
That is interesting, I had the same experience with my Eastern friend. My pilgrim friends I’ve spoken to about this, say the exact opposite.
Perhaps the truth is clouded by bias.
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Soloist, but I hate singing alone Soloist, but my wife posts with me Soloist, but I believe in community Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Maybe I asked this further upstream, but does anyone know if the O/O Amish loosened the restrictions on single men growing beards? I'm hearing rumors among the locals....
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I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:11 am
Maybe I asked this further upstream, but does anyone know if the O/O Amish loosened the restrictions on single men growing beards? I'm hearing rumors among the locals....
Did such a restriction ever actually exist? I understood it as there a restriction on married men shaving off their beards.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:11 am
Maybe I asked this further upstream, but does anyone know if the O/O Amish loosened the restrictions on single men growing beards? I'm hearing rumors among the locals....
Did such a restriction ever actually exist? I understood it as there a restriction on married men shaving off their beards.
That is a really good point.....
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I self-identify as a conspiracy theorist. My pronouns are told/you/so.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 5:11 am
Maybe I asked this further upstream, but does anyone know if the O/O Amish loosened the restrictions on single men growing beards? I'm hearing rumors among the locals....
Did such a restriction ever actually exist? I understood it as there a restriction on married men shaving off their beards.
That is a really good point.....
I heard some older Holdeman guys griping that it’s too bad worldly people wear beards now, because in the old days it was easy to tell if someone was a fellow believer when eg at airports.
Holdeman doctrine holds the beard roughly analogous to the covering.
