Of Baptism

[MaxPC]

Yes, RZehr is correct.

In the context of Josh's post that I was responding to, the "they" in my post refers to Followers of the Way in Boston, not to Mennonites.

Thank you, Peter. That's helpful. It's easy sometimes to lose track of who belongs to which pronoun.

[Ernie]

I suspect you are treated this way due to being an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing.

Anyone ethnic or non-ethnic, who FotW learns to know, who believes that:
-a person should be baptized as a believer and is part of a church that practices non-conformity, non-resistance, non-accumulation, head-covering, ministry to the poor, holiness of life, etc., is invited to commune with them.

I was also not aware FOTW has any defined leadership. According to Milioni they have not appointed anyone.

There can be leadership in a group even if it is not defined or appointed. And there are churches without leadership that have defined appointed leaders.

[Josh]

I suspect you are treated this way due to being an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing.

Anyone ethnic or non-ethnic, who FotW learns to know, who believes that:
-a person should be baptized as a believer and is part of a church that practices non-conformity, non-resistance, non-accumulation, head-covering, ministry to the poor, holiness of life, etc., is invited to commune with them.

Since the process of baptism can take years for non ethnic Mennonites, this means we are effectively shut out.

I hope Jesus is more welcoming and understanding than that.

[MaxPC]

Anyone ethnic or non-ethnic, who FotW learns to know, who believes that:
-a person should be baptized as a believer and is part of a church that practices non-conformity, non-resistance, non-accumulation, head-covering, ministry to the poor, holiness of life, etc., is invited to commune with them.

This seems very reasonable. Having a chance to know the person is important too, IMO. "Communion" comes from roots meaning "with unity" and those who are part of the communion are professing that unity. (Hope that wasn't too convoluted. I'm waiting for that chili to heat up and it's making me hungry.)

It helps the stability and peace of the fellowship by avoiding those who lash out, micromanage, or otherwise create an environment of hostility and adversarial conditions.

[Josh]

It's not reasonable to encourage people to doubt their salvation just because they aren't part of your church / share your theology, which is what FOTW does.

[gcdonner]

What about when Cornelius' house received the spirit before Baptism? I don't see how an unregenerate can receive the Spirit. Personally I have a hard time basing my beliefs on what the early church did because we don't really know if we even have writings from all the different groups, I find their writings interesting and worth pondering over, but they also had their own false teachings. It has become very obvious though recently to me how important water baptism is, I used to pretty much see it as optional.

The common response to the situation with Cornelius, is that he was a Gentile and the Apostles (specifically Peter here) had a hard time believing that God had accepted them. By giving the Spirit first, there was no reason for any further questions. This is pretty much explained as you continue to read in the book of Acts.

Stick with scripture and you will do better.

I do believe and teach that something genuinely takes place in immersion, whether we define it as the point of salvation, or a confirmation of it is beyond the pale of scripture overall. What we do know is that Paul admonishes us, when we are immersed, as a symbol of the death-burial-resurrection of Christ, to reckon ourselves dead unto sin, and upon rising, to being alive unto God.

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

I recommend reading the whole chapter to get a full understanding of his point. The testimony of those whom I have counseled prior to immersion (the word baptism means to dip, immerse) is that they understood the principle in their experience as they reckoned going down and coming up. It is a mystery that God wants to share with us, so it is MORE than JUST a symbol, when participated in, in faith. Water doesn't save anyone, but the answer of a good conscience when you are immersed does.

1Pe_3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I hope this will be helpful.
Blessings as you seek HIM!

[Shoesnsocks]

What about when Cornelius' house received the spirit before Baptism? I don't see how an unregenerate can receive the Spirit. Personally I have a hard time basing my beliefs on what the early church did because we don't really know if we even have writings from all the different groups, I find their writings interesting and worth pondering over, but they also had their own false teachings. It has become very obvious though recently to me how important water baptism is, I used to pretty much see it as optional.

The common response to the situation with Cornelius, is that he was a Gentile and the Apostles (specifically Peter here) had a hard time believing that God had accepted them. By giving the Spirit first, there was no reason for any further questions. This is pretty much explained as you continue to read in the book of Acts.

Stick with scripture and you will do better.

I do believe and teach that something genuinely takes place in immersion, whether we define it as the point of salvation, or a confirmation of it is beyond the pale of scripture overall. What we do know is that Paul admonishes us, when we are immersed, as a symbol of the death-burial-resurrection of Christ, to reckon ourselves dead unto sin, and upon rising, to being alive unto God.

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

I recommend reading the whole chapter to get a full understanding of his point. The testimony of those whom I have counseled prior to immersion (the word baptism means to dip, immerse) is that they understood the principle in their experience as they reckoned going down and coming up. It is a mystery that God wants to share with us, so it is MORE than JUST a symbol, when participated in, in faith. Water doesn't save anyone, but the answer of a good conscience when you are immersed does.

1Pe_3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I hope this will be helpful.
Blessings as you seek HIM!

You know I've actually been thinking the same thing since I wrote that about Cornelius and his house. And my apologies to Valerie if I came off as argumentative, I'm a confused sinner who is being greatly challenged in spiritual matters right now.

It does seem to me that baptism is absolutely a necessity after someone has found faith in Christ and not an option for one who desires to be his disciple, and 1 Peter 3:21 seems to back this up pretty well.
And thank you gcdonner, I have been having a very rough time recently in what I would just call "seeking" and I have met with more discouragement than I ever thought possible, sometimes it breaks my heart.

[Shoesnsocks]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

[lesterb]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

The early church believed that the "baptism of blood" (ie. martyrdom) adequately replaced baptism with water.

[Shoesnsocks]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

The early church believed that the "baptism of blood" (ie. martyrdom) adequately replaced baptism with water.

That's interesting. Is there any scripture to support that?