Query: Submission to the weaker brother?

[Wade]

One scripture that comes to mind is about who apologizes first being the more spiritual. However, there would be a balance in a genuine apologizing compared to something less. But also I don't think a "stronger" brother would spend much time (or any) making sure it was genuine when we consider Christ saying to forgive 70 x 7 - forgiving like that would be the submitting to the weaker brother as I understand it.

[Bootstrap]

One scripture that comes to mind is about who apologizes first being the more spiritual. However, there would be a balance in a genuine apologizing compared to something less. But also I don't think a "stronger" brother would spend much time (or any) making sure it was genuine when we consider Christ saying to forgive 70 x 7 - forgiving like that would be the submitting to the weaker brother as I understand it.

I mostly agree with this.

But two concerns. If I apologize, I'm really saying I intend to do something different in the future. If I have no idea what I should have done differently, I think I should keep learning before I apologize.

And there's a kind of passive aggressive that takes advantage of people who apologize, demanding that the other person repent or apologize while never doing so yourself. If you're not careful, you can reach a situation where the least mature, most manipulative people get to call the shots by keeping everyone else on the defensive, exalting themselves and putting others down. So I agree with you in general, but with some people, I suspect it's best to be a little more careful. I think you see that with Jesus and Paul, who did not always apologize when others were offended.

[Wade]

One scripture that comes to mind is about who apologizes first being the more spiritual. However, there would be a balance in a genuine apologizing compared to something less. But also I don't think a "stronger" brother would spend much time (or any) making sure it was genuine when we consider Christ saying to forgive 70 x 7 - forgiving like that would be the submitting to the weaker brother as I understand it.

I mostly agree with this.

But two concerns. If I apologize, I'm really saying I intend to do something different in the future. If I have no idea what I should have done differently, I think I should keep learning before I apologize.

And there's a kind of passive aggressive that takes advantage of people who apologize, demanding that the other person repent or apologize while never doing so yourself. If you're not careful, you can reach a situation where the least mature, most manipulative people get to call the shots by keeping everyone else on the defensive, exalting themselves and putting others down. So I agree with you in general, but with some people, I suspect it's best to be a little more careful. I think you see that with Jesus and Paul, who did not always apologize when others were offended.

Thank you for balancing this out. I certainly have experienced what you are talking about.

[temporal1]

i don't equate forgiving with submitting to.

[Bootstrap]

i don't equate forgiving with submitting to.

How do you see the relationship between the two?

[temporal1]

i don't equate forgiving with submitting to.

How do you see the relationship between the two?

as Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," He did not submit to sin, or the sinner, he forgave it, and instructed to not to return to it.

[Bootstrap]

as Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," He did not submit to sin, or the sinner, he forgave it, and instructed to not to return to it.

Ah, I see. Yes, that's what Jesus tells us to do.

In this thread, we're talking about what to do if your behavior tempts your brother to sin.

[MaxPC]

I am appreciating the Anabaptist view of this and I'm beginning to see some corollaries. Please bear with me as I query for further clarification.

At the same time, the weaker brother should not hold the church hostage.

I have seen modern examples of a small group of individuals who insist that a church abandon the Biblical teachings in its doctrine regarding homosexuality because they feel it's "unChristian" to make them feel bad about their active homosexual lifestyle. Likewise another individual or group would insist that a church abandon Biblical teachings regarding divorce, remarriage and adultery because they feel it's unfair and makes them feel like pariahs. (Yes, even in our own church there is this harassment to change our doctrine and to abandon Biblical teaching to make individuals "feel better".)

Queries:
1. In this "submission to the weaker", how does the Anabaptist fellowship draw the line so that they can avoid abandoning the teachings of Christ and the Bible because of the weakness of a few; as well as preventing those who are living contrary to the Bible from leading the entire fellowship into error?

2.

as Jesus said, "Go and sin no more," He did not submit to sin, or the sinner, he forgave it, and instructed to not to return to it.

Good observation.
Once that line is drawn, how does the Anabaptist fellowship proceed to encourage the weaker brother to embrace Christ's grace and the perfection of Christ's strength in his own weakness so that he may grow stronger and leave a life of gravely sinful ways, such as drugs, homosexual lifestyle, etc. (to "sin no more")? [bible]2 Corinthians 12, 7-10[/bible]

[Bootstrap]

I have seen modern examples of a small group of individuals who insist that a church abandon the Biblical teachings in its doctrine regarding homosexuality because they feel it's "unChristian" to make them feel bad about their active homosexual lifestyle. Likewise another individual or group would insist that a church abandon Biblical teachings regarding divorce, remarriage and adultery because they feel it's unfair and makes them feel like pariahs. (Yes, even in our own church there is this harassment to change our doctrine and to abandon Biblical teaching to make individuals "feel better".).

That's really a completely different topic. There's a big difference between (1) trying to avoid anything that might tempt a brother who has difficulty with a particular temptation, and (2) abandoning biblical teaching on what constitutes sin.

And what the Bible teaches on either of these topics does not depend on whose feelings might be hurt. We should encourage people not to sin.

Of course, 28% of Catholics who marry divorce, and an even larger percent of Protestants, so this is a difficult issue that many face.

Do we need more threads to discuss exactly what the Bible teaches about divorce, and what the word "except" means? If so, I'd suggest that we be careful to recognize that this is a different topic than what these other passages are talking about.

[Wade]

i don't equate forgiving with submitting to.

Then your a better Christian than I.
My pride doesn't want to forgive at times when I feel like I have a justified reason for not forgiving. I think God calls us to submit in forgiving but nor does that directly relate to a submission to a brother in whatever he wants to do.

I wanted more to use that text of the forgiving one being the more spiritual to help with seeing who actually is the weaker or stronger brother as we could talk in circles always trying to decide who is the one who should submit... We can't know if we can't identify who is the weaker.

And I don't want to confuse weakness with sin...