Are Plain Catholics Anabaptists?

[Bootstrap]

-I was invited to the forum by a gentleman to be a source of information on Catholic practices in general and simple sharing by way of dialogue instead of the forum members having to depend on third-hand information from blogs with an agenda.

You have said this at least a handful of times. Was this gentleman a member of MennoDiscuss or MennoNet? If so, does he care to identify himself? If the moderators had asked you to do this, I assume they would have said so by now. In general, MennoDiscuss didn't discuss Catholics much. I don't remember any other denomination being asked to send representatives to us.

I think the Catechism and Canon Law each represent official Catholic teaching. These are the kinds of things I turn to when I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches. When people quote them or quote from the blogs of canon lawyers or teachings from the Pope, you often seem to be asking us to accept your authority instead and evade the questions. That makes it really hard to have a dialogue that teaches us about official Catholic teaching.

For a few examples of this, search for "canon law" or "catechism" in this thread.

[temporal1]

Personally, i rely on this forum’s admin+mods for decisions on forum registrations and content.
They are competent.

Asking questions is fair and mostly allowed. At some point, respect for admin+mods’ decisions should prevail. They are not derelict in duty.

[MaxPC]

Personally, i rely on this forum’s admin+mods for decisions on forum registrations and content.
They are competent.
... At some point, respect for admin+mods’ decisions should prevail. They are not derelict in duty.

Indeed I agree.

Excellent cartoon: a fun way of pointing up the OCD cause of excessive behaviors associated with malicious, spiteful and revenge-filled actions.

[Josh]

I think it’s valid to keep asking where one can meet some Plain Catholics, or refer interested seekers.

According to MaxPC, they are a “secret society” which operates underground. I know a few traditional Catholics and none of heard of them.
One person (who used to post on this board) is now a plain Mennonite, but he used to attend Catholic mass at a very traditional parish, where he was the music director. He would have been very interest in “Plain Catholicism”.

Likewise I have a few friends who are Catholic but lean strongly in the pacifist / nonresistant direction. One of them has aspects of a plain lifestyle. They, too, would be interested in fellowshipping with likeminded Catholics.

So whenever any of these Plain Catholics are willing to get in touch, I would like to connect them with other Catholics or people seeking Catholicism who would be very blessed to meet them. Until such time, I will continue to hold my opinion that “Plain Catholics” are a secret society of unknown size - the only one we can confirm for sure is MaxPC, who goes by a secret, hidden identity.

[Bootstrap]

Personally, i rely on this forum’s admin+mods for decisions on forum registrations and content.
They are competent.

So do I. I don't think the admin+mods have announced that Max is telling the truth about Plain Catholics or that his website is a genuine depiction of reality or that the stories he tells about Plain Catholics or his own life add up.

Asking questions is fair and mostly allowed. At some point, respect for admin+mods’ decisions should prevail. They are not derelict in duty.

If they ever say we need to stop pointing out discrepancies in the stories Max tells about Plain Catholics and his own life, I will respect that decision.

[Bootstrap]

Excellent cartoon: a fun way of pointing up the OCD cause of excessive behaviors associated with malicious, spiteful and revenge-filled actions.

Really, Max, pointing out discrepancies in the stories you tell is not a sign of mental illness. And it's not an act of revenge. It's just an attempt to understand what is true and what is not. I don't know what your website or the stories you tell say about you, I prefer not to speculate.

It would be very, very easy for you to provide proof of the various claims you make. Or to acknowledge the obvious sources of pictures on your website. Or to give direct answers to direct questions. Or even to simply stop telling stories like these.

[Neto]

Who is your sponsoring Bishop? Or does your group not formally affiliate with RCC?
As a side note, COG was under Bishop Strickland and recently switched to another one, I just don't remember his name.

If you don't have a sponsoring Bishop, is there another loosely unified group like this without a sponsoring Bishop?
https://paxchristi.net/about-us/international-board/
This is the closest I can find and they have Bishop and an Archbishop on their board of directors.

Catholicism is never simple. It is rarely straightforward without an understanding of background, hierarchy and the like.

Hopefully I can break this down simply, not because you are simple in the head but because our procedurals are complex and would give God a headache if that is possible.

Sponsorship by a Bishop is for formal organisations that represent the Catholic faith in various and sundry missions.

Cultural groups, like ourselves, are Catholic, can even be said to informally represent the Catholic Church after a fashion, just as Italian Catholics, et al. do so. Cultural groups do not have sponsoring Bishops.

Now here is the tricky bit: if a cultural group of Catholics were to organise into a formal group representing the
Church then indeed, they would need the sponsorship as a means of accountability and oversight. Local neighborhood associations of Catholics do not qualify as a formal organisation.

Examples:
The Down East Italian Catholic social group does not need a Bishop for oversight. They are like-minded Catholics who chum together and do not represent the Church in a formal effort or organisation. Plain Catholics fall into this kind of category. Cultural groups do not accept donations in the name of the Church. Likewise, as one of those cultural groups, Plain Catholics do not accept donations.

The Italian Catholic Charitable Society is a formal group representing a charitable mission of the Catholic Church. They do need a sponsoring Bishop for oversight. As a formal organisation they may conduct fund raising efforts and volunteer recruitment. These activities require said oversight of a Bishop.

Clear as mud, I daresay. I am not sure I can make it less confusing. Not even the average born and bred Catholics completely understand it all so please do not feel badly about it.

Max, You might have told me before, but if so, I don't recall. What is the status (as to official sponsorship, etc.) of the Catholic mission agency in Brazil known as C.I.M.I. (CONSELHO INDIGENISTA MISSIONÁRIO)?

Their own statement, translated into English:

Cimi is an organization linked to the CNBB (National Conference of Bishops of Brazil) that has been working in defense of the rights of the indigenous peoples of Brazil for 48 years.

What does 'linked' mean in the context of 'sponsorship' as you have used it here?

[Bootstrap]

-We are a tiny group within a 2 Billion strong church membership. We live in the "boonies" as a friend calls it. We are the Quieter of the Quiet of the land (although I am not that quiet as my friends will tell you-I like a good conversation, good coffee and a good laugh ). We do not introduce ourselves as Plain Catholics any more than others introduce themselves as Polish Catholics or Italian Catholics or ... Irish/Indian/Polynesian/Whatever other blend of Catholics. We are just another culture in a very large church of a multitude of cultures.

But you have told stories about how people notice your clothing at church and ask about it. You have told us about the kinds of clothing you wear, e.g.

We began doing the One Big Birthday Party when we started full-timing almost ten years ago. We had trouble coordinating our trips to be there on their actual birthdays. Gifts are not expensive because family is the focus. For the grandchildren we give school supplies. For the adults we'll give a new pair of suspenders for the men and my wife makes new kapps for women.

Do they ever ask why you are wearing kapps and suspenders? If so, what do you tell them? Is there a Catholic tradition of kapps and suspenders?

There was once a Wikipedia article on Plain Catholics. It was deleted because nobody could find evidence that they exist. I have read discussions of Plain Catholics on Catholic forums. Nobody seems to be aware of Plain Catholics at the churches they attend. On those forums, Catholics asked why a Catholic would dress like that, and they were told that this was part of a ministry to Amish and Conservative Mennonites, that it helped break down barriers.

Are there really Amish or plain Mennonites who attend Catholic churches with Plain Catholics? Or who have and would like to tell us about it? Are there Catholic parishes who can tell us about the Plain Catholics who attend their churches? I was unable to find Catholics in Dahlonega, Georgia who know about them.

[Ken]

I've attended a lot of Catholic churches over the years in both the US and Latin America.

I've met plenty of arch-conservative Catholics, mostly of older generations who dress plainly and modestly. Not according to Menno or Amish fashion, but similarly modest. My 85 year old Chilean Catholic mother-in-law, for example, dresses very conservatively and is probably more hyper-critical of how my daughter's dress and comport themselves than their Menno grandmother on the other side of the family.

That said, aside from the obsession with modest dress and comportment, there is nothing "plain" at all about her Catholicism. She attends an ornate cathedral-like home church full of incense, shrines, candles, and all the other trappings of Catholicism. The services are ornate and Baroque. She is always going to church on weekdays to light candles for this or that reason and pray to the Virgin Mary, take confession, and so forth. My wife was sent to Catholic girls schools taught by nuns her entire childhood. It is all the polar opposite of plain Anabaptism.

That said, Catholicism is enormous and there are dissident groups of every single flavor from the ultra-liberal to the ultra-conservative. Around here in Washington State there are dissident Catholic groups who ordain married priests and women. Are they still Catholic? They claim they are. But Rome begs to differ. When I was working in Guatemala in the late 1980s there were dissident "liberation theology" priests and groups that ran afoul of the Vatican and were disowned by both the hierarchy in Guatemala as well as the Pope. Some were even being assassinated with the complicity of the conservative Catholic hierarchy in Guatemala City. Today we have more ultra-conservative Catholic groups running into conflict with the Vatican. That is they way it has always been and always will be when you have such a large and hierarchical institution.

Are there some conservative rural Catholics who affect conservative Anabaptist fashions and such? I have no idea. But dress is really one of the more trivial aspects of plain Anabaptism. It isn't nearly as important as things like church structure and organization, doctrines of belief, worship services, churches themselves, and so forth. But I think that any Catholic group that is in good standing with the local Catholic hierarchy and the Vatican cannot be called "Anabaptist" by any definition of the term. And if they are a dissident group operating outside of the authority and supervision of the Catholic Church then they probably can't be considered Catholic.

[temporal1]

From what Max shares, and what is reflected on the oft-mentioned PC website, these are practicing Roman Catholics, not dissidents. To answer the topic’s subject line, PCs are not Anabaptist.

i’m unconcerned if there is 1 or 1000. or if the Vatican recognizes them or not.
they are practicing RC who like Amish clothing. right?