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Hats Off wrote:It has been said that "arguing" is pointless; if you are right, there is no point in it and if you are wrong, why continue? However, I have noticed that usually when we talk of arguing, we refer to heated disagreements; those are the kind we want to avoid. When an author says that he will "argue" for a certain interpretation, that is similar to what we want to do on this forum. This "argument" is to present the facts as we see them, and hopefully convince you that our understanding is correct. Or, conversely, to learn that we do not have all the facts yet, or that our understanding is misguided. And yet always with due respect for the other.

In reality, we get irritated because someone else does not agree with us. When we tell them how they should think and they do not, we get mad and have to attack or reject the person because they will not think right.

In doing so, we put ourselves above the other. We also put knowledge above relationships. I do not think that is wisdom. Just selfish human knowledge. Kind of like the Publican.

There is a world of difference between "I understand it as" and "You are wrong." The first is an attempt to engage and build up a relationship. The later is a way to shut someone down and belittle them.

This reminds me of what I used to teach the children when talking about food: They would say "This doesn't taste good." I would remind them that it would be better to say "I don't like this." One is an absolute type of statement and the other is more subjective.

Hats Off wrote:This reminds me of what I used to teach the children when talking about food: They would say "This doesn't taste good." I would remind them that it would be better to say "I don't like this." One is an absolute type of statement and the other is more subjective.

And if it was my kids that said it, I would give them more and say, "Well, you are going to learn to like it." When my wife cooks, they can ask for something else. When I cook, which is often now, they have learned to act like that burned food is delicious or they get more!

Robert wrote:In reality, we get irritated because someone else does not agree with us. When we tell them how they should think and they do not, we get mad and have to attack or reject the person because they will not think right.

In doing so, we put ourselves above the other. We also put knowledge above relationships. I do not think that is wisdom. Just selfish human knowledge. Kind of like the Publican.

There is a world of difference between "I understand it as" and "You are wrong." The first is an attempt to engage and build up a relationship. The later is a way to shut someone down and belittle them.

I agree with most of this, but I also think that there's a danger in seeing everything as just a matter of opinion.

Ideally, I like discussions where we all assume we don't know for sure, but we can look at something together carefully over time, learning as we go. Sometimes someone will start a thread where the real purpose seems to be to inflict an opinion on everyone else or to establish that the person posting is the real expert. In that kind of thread, people make absolute statements and are offended if you don't agree with what they said, and they sometimes even act like you should believe it because they said it.

I wonder if there are better ways to say, "Hmmmm, I wonder if that's true. How can we find out?" Of course, it's often at least as important to ask, "Hmmmm, I wonder if that's how Jesus is teaching us to show his love. How can we find out?"

Robert wrote:

Hats Off wrote:It has been said that "arguing" is pointless; if you are right, there is no point in it and if you are wrong, why continue? However, I have noticed that usually when we talk of arguing, we refer to heated disagreements; those are the kind we want to avoid. When an author says that he will "argue" for a certain interpretation, that is similar to what we want to do on this forum. This "argument" is to present the facts as we see them, and hopefully convince you that our understanding is correct. Or, conversely, to learn that we do not have all the facts yet, or that our understanding is misguided. And yet always with due respect for the other.

In reality, we get irritated because someone else does not agree with us. When we tell them how they should think and they do not, we get mad and have to attack or reject the person because they will not think right.

In doing so, we put ourselves above the other. We also put knowledge above relationships. I do not think that is wisdom. Just selfish human knowledge. Kind of like the Publican.

There is a world of difference between "I understand it as" and "You are wrong." The first is an attempt to engage and build up a relationship.

The later is a way to shut someone down and belittle them.

i agree.
there is another part to this.
those who know one another and generally agree and respect each other, will extend grace without hesitation .. whereas, if there is no existing mutual respect, no grace will be extended. lines will be drawn, accusations fly, etc. it happens on this forum regularly.

thus, bunny trails, and other threads used for conflict resolution.

http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... diot#p1517

Bootstrap wrote:

gcdonner wrote:T1 was looking for an idiot icon, well, T1, I'm a blooming idiot, does that help?

temporal1 wrote:there is another part to this.
those who know one another and generally agree and respect each other, will extend grace without hesitation .. whereas, if there is no existing mutual respect, no grace will be extended. lines will be drawn, accusations fly, etc. it happens on this forum regularly.

thus, bunny trails, and other threads used for conflict resolution.

That's a choice we make.

Every time we post, we decide whether to show respect. Showing respect and showing grace are closely related. And agreeing and respecting are two different things. We have to be able to disagree without disrespecting.

When we disagree about something we are discussing, we want to discuss it like this:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. The law is not against such things. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Not like this:

Now the works of the flesh are obvious: ... hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy ...

But that doesn't mean that everyone has to think everything I say is true, and everyone should feel free to challenge my facts or explain why they disagree.

Bootstrap wrote:But that doesn't mean that everyone has to think everything I say is true, and everyone should feel free to challenge my facts or explain why they disagree.

Yes, this is the mature approach. One I can reach most days, but there are times when something triggers me, or I am totally overwhelmed and just can't get there.

The benefit of having relationships is we learn when each other hits that wall and we back off. Well, most do. I often keep pressing. Sometimes I do it because I think it is funny and every one else will get my humor. Other times, I am being passive aggressive and poking the bear. Every so often I just get plain mad. I also expect everyone to be able to read my mind and know when each of these is going on. Not sure why everyone's world does not revolve around me.

And lastly, some can not deal with being challenged. Goes back to that affiliated faith thing, in my opinion.

Robert wrote: Yes, this is the mature approach. One I can reach most days, but there are times when something triggers me, or I am totally overwhelmed and just can't get there.

The benefit of having relationships is we learn when each other hits that wall and we back off. Well, most do. I often keep pressing. Sometimes I do it because I think it is funny and every one else will get my humor. Other times, I am being passive aggressive and poking the bear. Every so often I just get plain mad. I also expect everyone to be able to read my mind and know when each of these is going on. Not sure why everyone's world does not revolve around me.

And lastly, some can not deal with being challenged. Goes back to that affiliated faith thing, in my opinion.

affiliated faith thing?