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Josh wrote:There are conservative Quakers (including one meeting near me). Their theology is different enough from evangelicals and from Anabaptists that most of us wouldn't be comfortable there.

Josh wrote:Quakers never recognised the principle of headship at all.

yes. from the start, the focus was on the "Light within," they wanted no pastors or formal leadership of any station or description. they (as others in that period) were breaking away from state religions, monarchies, this was radical.

this translated into an interesting account of one Quaker who, early on, visited with some Native Americans, he described sensing the Light within these folks. (i'm not sure where i read this, if i recall, i'll add it.)

i was astonished to read, some of the earliest Quakers had slaves. in time, tho, they fully denounced this practice and would disown any in disagreement. they used the word, "disown" (from membership.)

One resource that may be of interest is the Christian History Magazine issue on the Quakers.

temporal1 wrote:

Neto wrote:A good summary, in my understanding. Regarding baptism, I think the Quakers would say that they DO believe in baptism, but that for them, it is a spiritual event, not with water. The same with communion.

Another difference - they accept women pastors. I got acquainted with a girl while in missions training whose parents were both pastors, and actually in different Quaker congregations.

i was working on the above post before seeing yours.
i see you noticed similar regarding sacraments. this difference in understanding, and observing, seems to be a baseline difference for Quakers.

i'll have to read more about "women pastors." (so far, i think) they do not have pastors or formal leadership, again, strongly believing in the "Light within" everyone. they recognize men and women equally, not observing headship (??) .. Margaret Fell was an early prominent female, i wonder how much her early influence impacted those beliefs? which must have been profound in the 1600's.

the liberal end of Mennonites allows women in ministry.

I don't know all of the details by any means, but as I understand there are two basic groupings of Quakers, the unprogrammed meeting ones, and those who have appointed ministers. The Unprogrammed Quakers are the ones you are thinking of - they just gather, and then wait for the Holy Spirit to give a word to one of the members. (I am assuming that they have some sort of membership process, but I do not know what it is. I never talked with my friend about that question. The main thing was non-resistance, because that was in the late 70s & early 80s, and some of her best friends had made a comment to her about that "those conscientious objectors should just be all lined up & shot". Some of those people had probably lost brothers in VietNam, and so it was an emotional issue for them.)

ohio jones wrote:One resource that may be of interest is the Christian History Magazine issue on the Quakers.

thank you.

Neto wrote:I don't know all of the details by any means, but as I understand there are two basic groupings of Quakers, the unprogrammed meeting ones, and those who have appointed ministers.

The Unprogrammed Quakers are the ones you are thinking of - they just gather, and then wait for the Holy Spirit to give a word to one of the members. (I am assuming that they have some sort of membership process, but I do not know what it is. I never talked with my friend about that question.

The main thing was non-resistance, because that was in the late 70s & early 80s, and some of her best friends had made a comment to her about that "those conscientious objectors should just be all lined up & shot". Some of those people had probably lost brothers in VietNam, and so it was an emotional issue for them.)

thank you.
Vietnam was a difficult period, causing lots of pain and loss. this is not completely past tense.
i'm continuing to learn. so far, i have not read about Quakers with appointed pastors, but, that may be the case.

Josh wrote:Quakers don't believe in baptism at all. That would make them the opposite of Anabaptists in a literal sense.

Evangelical Friends have moved towards an evangelical understanding of most things, but I wouldn't really consider them Quakers.

There is a man in my congregation who had a lot of experience with Quakers when they had more numbers where I live, if you have particular questions, I could ask him.

Quakers have never practiced the ordinances that I am aware of. Being you live in Ohio, I'm assuming you live close to the Wilburite's. Do you know if they practice any of the ordinances and is/was your friend a convinced Quaker? Also, are they plain? I'm unfamiliar with the Wilburite's as I've only attended unprogrammed meetings (Hicksite) with some of my Quaker relatives. I like Quaker phrases such as "convinced" or "birthright", myself. And by the way, it's possible to be a convinced, birthright Quaker. Also, I like plain speech, and after experiencing unprogrammed worship, I purpose not to talk so much. However, I do miss singing hymns.

Martin wrote:Quakers have never practiced the ordinances that I am aware of. Being you live in Ohio, I'm assuming you live close to the Wilburite's. Do you know if they practice any of the ordinances and is/was your friend a convinced Quaker? Also, are they plain? I'm unfamiliar with the Wilburite's as I've only attended unprogrammed meetings (Hicksite) with some of my Quaker relatives. I like Quaker phrases such as "convinced" or "birthright", myself. And by the way, it's possible to be a convinced, birthright Quaker. Also, I like plain speech, and after experiencing unprogrammed worship, I purpose not to talk so much. However, I do miss singing hymns.

Considering my friend is a member in good standing in the CGC, Mennonite (Holdeman), I don't think he's a convinced Quaker anymore.

My mother and sister tried to go to the Conservative Quaker meeting (that is what they call themselves now) in Salem, Ohio, but unfortunately the day they picked there was, apparently, no meeting. So they arrived to an empty meeting house, waited around a while, and then went home. To my knowledge the Conservative Quakers don't practice any ordinances (unless you consider head coverings an ordinance), and as far as I know they are still "plain". I hope I can visit them myself at some point.

My mother connects a lot to classical Quaker thinking and writings, so I have this hope in the back of my mind that she will some day find fellowship and a home in a Conservative Quaker meeting.

i read a little more on George Fox's life:
i did not before know of George Fox's name.

the label, "Quakers," stuck, rather than his name, as happened with Mennonites and Lutherans.
i like the way the word, "Quakers," came about:

found under 1650-52:
"He speaks after the sermon in Derby and is jailed for a year. His message was that people should stop disputing about Christ and obey him. He again converts the jailer. It is at his trial that Judge Bennett fixed upon his movement the word Quaker after Fox asked him to quake before the Lord".

interesting how the things he/they struggled with continue, hundreds of years later, and, right here on this forum! no, "once and done." no human formula.

found under 1646:
"Salvation is for Fox complete normal spiritual health and moral power — a life victorious over man's darker side. The incorruptible seed of God, he maintained, can produce, and ought to produce a full-grown, holy, and sinless life. That exalted claim which Fox made at the outset of his ministry threw all the "professors", he say "into a rage," for they all "pleaded for sin and imperfection. None of them could bear to be told that any should come to Adam's perfection, into the image of God. Then they asked me, If I had no sin? I answered 'Christ, my Saviour, has taken away my sin, and in Him is no sin."
This is the break from Puritanism."

it's so moving to read of how things began, how people sacrificed for their beliefs, while trying to imagine the context of the times. these folks were seeking to improve on Puritan beliefs.

according to this report, George Fox was raised in a godly Puritan family, he sought more.
Jesus wants us to seek Him.

Who to follow?
http://christianfunnypictures.com/wp-co ... stians.jpg

“This gem in the city of Thomaston is apparently owned and operated by Mennonite Quakers..."

This was in a Yelp review of our deli.

GaryK wrote:

“This gem in the city of Thomaston is apparently owned and operated by Mennonite Quakers..."

This was in a Yelp review of our deli.

uh oh. now there'll be trouble.

bunny trail -
in the early 70's, we were living in Vermont. we took a road trip one May, i believe we got as far south as St Augustine, FL. one stop was at a small coastal Georgia motel, the porch railing was covered in the sweetest-smelling jasmine, it was hypnotic, i'd never smelled smelled anything so fragrant .. the whole trip was dreamy-other-worldly to me, a young one, at the time. it was so warm, and only May!

there was a friendly housekeeper working just then, we chatted a bit. she noticed our Vermont license plates. i remember her pleasant, easy drawl, as she remarked/asked,
"Vermont? now, that's up-there in Canada, isn't it?!" my brain flashed for a moment, then, i remember hearing myself reply, "yeah. Canada. something like that." i had never seen the ocean before that trip.

interesting on Puritans and Pilgrims.
http://www.history.com/topics/puritanism

"Did You Know?
In keeping with their focus on the home, Puritan migration to the New World usually consisted of entire families, rather than the young, single men who comprised many other early European settlements."

i'm trying to figure out the connection/timeline between Martin Luther and/or Menno Simons on the English Reformation. there must have been a direct connection (?) .. how and when did that work? people traveled, they traded, they wrote letters, word got around. the Bible printed and distributed was an important change.

i've read about these time before, but in a more generalized way.

was there a connection/influence that resulted in Quakers choosing to be CO? - it seems improbable there could not be. but not 100% impossible.