Proper expectations on unbelievers

[ken_sylvania]

Why not?
Is it decent for a man to break his promise?

Didn't say I'm fine with divorce amongst unbelievers. Nor did I say it was decent. I'm just not okay with holding them to the standards of believers.

Why not?

[Josh]

Can a person make a covenant that is not before God?

Many non-Christians who get married don't make vows or covenants at all, and often explictly state their promises to each other are not for life. So it seems a bit nonsensical to hold them to our own Christian ideas of the promise we think they should have made when they didn't even make one.

And it does zero for our witness to the gospel.

[ken_sylvania]

Can a person make a covenant that is not before God?

Many non-Christians who get married don't make vows or covenants at all, and often explictly state their promises to each other are not for life. So it seems a bit nonsensical to hold them to our own Christian ideas of the promise we think they should have made when they didn't even make one.

And it does zero for our witness to the gospel.

Jesus certainly didn't seem to have had a problem telling the Jews of his day that divorce stems from hardness of heart and exhorting them not to break the marriage bond.

Are you suggesting divorce is OK for an unbeliever?

[KingdomBuilder]

Why not?
Is it decent for a man to break his promise?

Didn't say I'm fine with divorce amongst unbelievers. Nor did I say it was decent. I'm just not okay with holding them to the standards of believers.

Why not?

Because they aren't Christians. Seems pretty obvious?
Would you run around rebuking unbelievers for wearing gold? For fighting in the army?

[KingdomBuilder]

Jesus certainly didn't seem to have had a problem telling the Jews of his day that divorce stems from hardness of heart and exhorting them not to break the marriage bond.

Are you suggesting divorce is OK for an unbeliever?

Jews then aren't the equivalent of unbelievers now

[Josh]

Are you suggesting divorce is OK for an unbeliever?

What difference does it make if an unbeliever lives what looks like on the outside to be a "good" life, versus someone who is a tax-gatherer, sinner, and gets divorced?

[Josh]

Back to the original topic (I'm not sure how unbelievers getting divorced or honouring their non-existent marriage "covenants" was relevant to this whole discussion), I want to give the person in question a bit of the benefit of the doubt.

I think his specific plain Anabaptist environment is one that has a lot of focus on outward things, and talks a lot about how great it is that women are modest. I agree that it's great when women following Jesus choose to be modest as part of their obedience to scripture.

But at the same time, something seems really amiss when one expects someone not in their church fellowship to put their hair up. It's like expecting someone outside of a conservative Beachy church to wear solid patterns, not prints. Whilst I agree that choosing solids instead of prints can be part of a good, godly lifestyle, I feel like one's focus has gotten really far away from reaching the lost when one starts to be worried about hairstyles on women who, if our own theology is to believed, are headed straight for hell, even if they dutifully put their hair up every day or wear a hijab.

[Ernie]

something seems really amiss when one expects someone not in their church fellowship to put their hair up. It's like expecting someone outside of a conservative Beachy church to wear solid patterns, not prints. Whilst I agree that choosing solids instead of prints can be part of a good, godly lifestyle, I feel like one's focus has gotten really far away from reaching the lost when one starts to be worried about hairstyles on women who, if our own theology is to believed, are headed straight for hell, even if they dutifully put their hair up every day or wear a hijab.

To Josh,

I agree with others in this thread who feel that issues like this should have been discussed before going into partnership.
But leaving that aside,

How is asking female employees to wear their hair up different from asking female employees to wear long skirts, asking male employees to wear long pants, asking employees to wear sleeves at least elbow length, asking employees to not wear jewelry or hardware, etc, as part of the company uniform? Don't most companies draw the line somewhere? Maybe you aren't saying there is a difference????

[Josh]

Josh,

I agree with others in this thread who feel that issues like this should have been discussed before going into partnership.
But leaving that aside,

How is asking female employees to wear their hair up different from asking female employees to wear long skirts, asking male employees to wear long pants, asking employees to wear sleeves at least elbow length, asking employees to not wear jewelry or hardware, etc, as part of the company uniform? Don't most companies draw the line somewhere? Maybe you aren't saying there is a difference????

That would be fine and dress codes requiring hair up are quite common.

But this woman isn't this man's employee and doesn't work for him. Instead, she's another man's wife.

[ken_sylvania]

Josh,

That would be fine and dress codes requiring hair up are quite common.

But this woman isn't this man's employee and doesn't work for him. Instead, she's another man's wife.

Would it be appropriate for him to insist that his partner's wife doesn't come around in a bikini? I certainly think it would be. So where does the line need to be drawn?