The Trinity

[gcdonner]

In my opinion, the doctrine of the trinity is man's poorest effort to describe the indescribable and define the indefinable.
The Jews insisted that the LORD is "ONE". Remember, that the doctrine of the trinity was not nailed down until Constantine tried to amalgamate all the various flavors of Christianity in his time, not for theological reasons, but for political expedience for himself.
Unfortunately, that one doctrinal theology has split the church from that time on and remember that it was not initially the trinity doctrine that held sway in the vast majority of christendom.
Interestingly, Constantine was not baptized until on his death bed and then it was by an Arian bishop. The council of Nicaea was not the final discussion of the trinitarian doctrine by any stretch.
Scripture does NOT teach the trinity, it can only be deduced with bias.

Here is a question to consider.
If you knew nothing of the trinity doctrine, from a simple reading of scripture would you come to that understanding automatically? Obviously, history tells us differently.

I can believe in the divinity of Christ, without affirming the trinity doctrine. I am not against it, but feel that it confuses the truth and creates disharmony.

I plainly confess, I don't understand it, nor do I believe that anyone who follows it, understands it.

Can you define the Divine?

Scripture asks, "...who has known the mind of God?"

Think about it.

[Wade]

When I first started reading scripture I was quite confused. People would always point to the book of John (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.) and when someone has no previous learning of scripture it couldn't have been more confusing for me...????
Please point newcomers to the book of Matthew!

But I think people point to the book of John to show the deity of Christ. Comparing these verses with beginning verses in Genesis and Colossians gives a strong impression of that oneness with God and the Son and certainly the deity of Christ

So where does the Spirit fit in? As I said earlier He is still the Father.

I do believe that we can misconstrue our understanding of how to understand being one with Him if we aren't careful and confuse the whole matter.

So far by simple looking at scripture and nothing complex we see the Son and God are certainly one but so is God and the Spirit.
So how do we not accept the oneness of the three without taking away from the scriptures rather than adding anything to it?

[MaxPC]

Great topic, Wade.

In our church we have the illustration of St Patrick who used the three lobed clover leaf to explain the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as 3 in 1.

How does he explain four leafed clovers? Perhaps poison ivy would be a better illustration

Like any good teacher he used whatever was on hand to convey a concept. He wasn't teaching that the clover was the Trinity, just the way it was an example of three in one.

I'm not sure poison ivy is in Ireland; it might be now. Makes me wonder if it was 1600 years ago? But then that's a bunny trail - sorry Wade.

[Soloist]

I would just get caught up in the whole, Jesus is the Word of God, and all was created by and through Him. So Jesus is God's word. That carries its own complexity and I can't claim to understand it. I would tend to think trinity or not, it doesn't really matter. Jesus is our Lord. Is He the God or just the Son(God) of God? All power and authority was given to Him and He said, "I and the Father are one" is that a statement of one mind, one accord? like a marriage? or rather something of a one being?
I mean nothing past the marriage other then the idea of a husband wife being one flesh yet two.
Regardless of how confused I might be, I do plainly believe in the Deity of Christ.
We can also get into the idea that maybe there are four... Jesus told the Apostles when He breathed on them

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

So one could come to an idea that Jesus gave them a Holy Spirit, and then they received the Holy Spirit from the Father. I could also just be over thinking it
Easy answer is I hope its not a theology test but how we live out following Christ.

[gcdonner]

When I first started reading scripture I was quite confused. People would always point to the book of John (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.) and when someone has no previous learning of scripture it couldn't have been more confusing for me...????
Please point newcomers to the book of Matthew!

But I think people point to the book of John to show the deity of Christ. Comparing these verses with beginning verses in Genesis and Colossians gives a strong impression of that oneness with God and the Son and certainly the deity of Christ

So where does the Spirit fit in? As I said earlier He is still the Father.

I do believe that we can misconstrue our understanding of how to understand being one with Him if we aren't careful and confuse the whole matter.

So far by simple looking at scripture and nothing complex we see the Son and God are certainly one but so is God and the Spirit.
So how do we not accept the oneness of the three without taking away from the scriptures rather than adding anything to it?

Sounds like we need to go back to the thread on "Who is God?"
Would you agree with the Nicene Creed?

[temporal1]

When I first started reading scripture I was quite confused. People would always point to the book of John (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.) and when someone has no previous learning of scripture it couldn't have been more confusing for me...????
Please point newcomers to the book of Matthew!

But I think people point to the book of John to show the deity of Christ. Comparing these verses with beginning verses in Genesis and Colossians gives a strong impression of that oneness with God and the Son and certainly the deity of Christ

So where does the Spirit fit in? As I said earlier He is still the Father.

I do believe that we can misconstrue our understanding of how to understand being one with Him if we aren't careful and confuse the whole matter.

So far by simple looking at scripture and nothing complex we see the Son and God are certainly one but so is God and the Spirit.
So how do we not accept the oneness of the three without taking away from the scriptures rather than adding anything to it?

we may think similarly on this.
i attribute my view as simple, esp after reading discussions on MD, those strongly for/against.
"simple" can be a blessing (if not rooted in evil.)

i see the use of the word, "trinity," as simply a word that represents 3.
in scriptures, 3 are described as perfect, without sin, not separate from one another.
distinct from all others.

i see the use of the word, trinity, as recognition of these 3.
the specific word is not in scriptures, it does not conflict with scriptures. it's a word.

i'm at ease with it in this way.

having said that, i also believe people are vulnerable to making false gods out of anything.
that's the potential that must be resisted in all matters, not just the use of this word.

[Wade]

When I first started reading scripture I was quite confused. People would always point to the book of John (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.) and when someone has no previous learning of scripture it couldn't have been more confusing for me...????
Please point newcomers to the book of Matthew!

But I think people point to the book of John to show the deity of Christ. Comparing these verses with beginning verses in Genesis and Colossians gives a strong impression of that oneness with God and the Son and certainly the deity of Christ

So where does the Spirit fit in? As I said earlier He is still the Father.

I do believe that we can misconstrue our understanding of how to understand being one with Him if we aren't careful and confuse the whole matter.

So far by simple looking at scripture and nothing complex we see the Son and God are certainly one but so is God and the Spirit.
So how do we not accept the oneness of the three without taking away from the scriptures rather than adding anything to it?

Sounds like we need to go back to the thread on "Who is God?"
Would you agree with the Nicene Creed?

I went back and read the entire "Who is God," thread. The things you point out about His name YHWH, Jevovah, etc. and the different LORD, Lord, and lords in scripture I have been aware of for a bit now. But some how the approach goes right over my head of what you are trying to portray...

I don't mean to disagree but rather I want to hear about this as my understanding isn't settled completely - I don't want to imply I will ever have a full understanding ever with my finite mind, but am curious to hear more especially from some conservative Anabaptist's too.

[lesterb]

I want to be careful on my approach to this subject because it is easy to allow our imagination to roam to far. God told Job, "who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge." We get to that point pretty quickly in a subject like this.

First of all, the main passage used to teach the trinity is in a disputed portion of Scripture. I'm usually pretty hesitant to use such passages to teach doctrine. The last part of the last chapter in Mark is another one like that.

The trinity is difficult to understand. Jesus said that He and Father were one, and it seems clear that the Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth. So that's two parts of the Trinity. Jesus also said, while talking about the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, "I will come unto you." So you have the third part of the Trinity. If Jesus is one with the Father and with Spirit, then the Spirit and the Father are likely to be one as well. So you have a Union of Three Beings who are one homogenous being, yet three separate entities at the same time.

So I don't think we depend totally on a disputed passage for our knowledge of the Trinity. However, it is a subject that the Bible is not totally clear on -- perhaps because God knew that it was beyond our ability to understand.

[Bootstrap]

I think the Bible clearly tells us that the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and Jesus is God. The rest is spelled out only in part. Some day we shall know as fully as we are known.

[MaxPC]

I want to be careful on my approach to this subject because it is easy to allow our imagination to roam to far. God told Job, "who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge." We get to that point pretty quickly in a subject like this.

First of all, the main passage used to teach the trinity is in a disputed portion of Scripture. I'm usually pretty hesitant to use such passages to teach doctrine. The last part of the last chapter in Mark is another one like that.

The trinity is difficult to understand. Jesus said that He and Father were one, and it seems clear that the Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth. So that's two parts of the Trinity. Jesus also said, while talking about the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, "I will come unto you." So you have the third part of the Trinity. If Jesus is one with the Father and with Spirit, then the Spirit and the Father are likely to be one as well. So you have a Union of Three Beings who are one homogenous being, yet three separate entities at the same time.

So I don't think we depend totally on a disputed passage for our knowledge of the Trinity. However, it is a subject that the Bible is not totally clear on -- perhaps because God knew that it was beyond our ability to understand.

Amen and thank you