Television - Revelations

[gcdonner]

In the beginning though- computers didn't really have entertainment though. The fact that they've evolved, doesn't seem to make them equal with tv which main purpose was to entertain. One could have received the news from radio. A computer has many benefits that have nothing to do with a desire to be entertained so is it fair to equate them?

Yup it is. The internet has far more pervasive negative information available than the TV. I haven't had TV for 30 years, but I find that the possibility of the internet is waaaaaay higher than the TV, though anymore, TV is directly connected anyway, so they are essentially the same monster.

I don't deny that, but that becomes a matter of the will. TV began for entertainment. Many Christians do without, but have pure intent with computer usage. I guess I don't see them as the same for all - even if evil is available, one could own & use for business, fellowship, learning not to be entertained. Many on Mennonet use computers but abstain from tv- seeing the difference. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse computer owners of owning a tv

No accusations and why should they be if they are one and the same. We need to follow the dictates of our hearts and the guidance of the Spirit directed brotherhood.

[singitagain]

Not to mention the Oral Tradition(s) of the One True Church(es).

Certainly if they can tell us history of Mary's parents, what became of Zacheaus, the woman at the well & her sisters & their martyrdom, and much other history, how they could have missed Jesus' return - impossible

There were those who told of the "second coming" of Christ, There is a book/sermon by Eusebius (recognized as the first historian of the church) in the early 300s entitled "Theophania". He clearly believed that Christ had already returned and there are other indicators from non-christian historians reporting things that were attributed to the second coming of Christ.
It is not for lack of documentation, but for lack of reading and being familiar with the history of the church.

Can you explain? I have read Eusebius' Theophania and I did not see any reference to a Second Advent of Christ. I am doing a fair amount of reading in the Ante-Nicene Fathers and do not recall any reference to the Second Advent having happened already.

[Sudsy]

In the beginning though- computers didn't really have entertainment though. The fact that they've evolved, doesn't seem to make them equal with tv which main purpose was to entertain. One could have received the news from radio. A computer has many benefits that have nothing to do with a desire to be entertained so is it fair to equate them?

Yup it is. The internet has far more pervasive negative information available than the TV. I haven't had TV for 30 years, but I find that the possibility of the internet is waaaaaay higher than the TV, though anymore, TV is directly connected anyway, so they are essentially the same monster.

I don't deny that, but that becomes a matter of the will. TV began for entertainment. Many Christians do without, but have pure intent with computer usage. I guess I don't see them as the same for all - even if evil is available, one could own & use for business, fellowship, learning not to be entertained. Many on Mennonet use computers but abstain from tv- seeing the difference. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse computer owners of owning a tv

“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12

I see them as one and the same myself. Lately I've been watching your full church service on Sundays as I like to watch and listen to Alistair Begg. I also have no issue by being 'entertained' by wholesome things I watch. We are entertained here on this forum every day. My wife and I enjoy many clips of God's creation showing places in the world I could never visit and especially funny animal and children clips. I'm not promoting having a TV but I think for some it is a 'holier-than-thou' to not have a TV yet own a computer. For others, where the temptation is too great to sin, as a good friend of mine did, he got rid of both. It would appear that most here don't have a TV but obviously they have a computer. Perhaps "the beast" is a computer if one speculates it can be a TV. Or a cell phone that can give one access to almost anything, anywhere, anytime.

[Valerie]

Yup it is. The internet has far more pervasive negative information available than the TV. I haven't had TV for 30 years, but I find that the possibility of the internet is waaaaaay higher than the TV, though anymore, TV is directly connected anyway, so they are essentially the same monster.

I don't deny that, but that becomes a matter of the will. TV began for entertainment. Many Christians do without, but have pure intent with computer usage. I guess I don't see them as the same for all - even if evil is available, one could own & use for business, fellowship, learning not to be entertained. Many on Mennonet use computers but abstain from tv- seeing the difference. I'm not sure it's fair to accuse computer owners of owning a tv

“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Cor 6:12

I see them as one and the same myself. Lately I've been watching your full church service on Sundays as I like to watch and listen to Alistair Begg. I also have no issue by being 'entertained' by wholesome things I watch. We are entertained here on this forum every day. My wife and I enjoy many clips of God's creation showing places in the world I could never visit and especially funny animal and children clips. I'm not promoting having a TV but I think for some it is a 'holier-than-thou' to not have a TV yet own a computer. For others, where the temptation is too great to sin, as a good friend of mine did, he got rid of both. It would appear that most here don't have a TV but obviously they have a computer. Perhaps "the beast" is a computer if one speculates it can be a TV. Or a cell phone that can give one access to almost anything, anywhere, anytime.

I can agree with this.
By the way, you say you've been watching our church online (or on your smart TV).
Christmas Eve, going to service, imagine my surprise when a family of Amish pulled up in a van & parked next to us. I'm not used to Amish driving! We walked into church together- I asked if they were Amish, & they said yes, this was their first time visiting our church. They said they listen to Pastor Begg online! Going into church, I saw several more Amish families. What? Did they all text each other to meet at our Church? Apparently they like Pastor Begg, just was surprised to see them there.

[gcdonner]

Apparently they like Pastor Begg, just was surprised to see them there.

We enjoy hearing Pastor Begg on the American Family Radio station we get here in TN. Great programming most of the day.

[Outsider]

The NC began at the cross, but you lost your time context, there was a generation between the NC coming in and the OC vanishing away, however essentially you nailed it because when it was buried by Titus, then the OC was finished.
Just as the first generation of those who came out of Egypt ended up wandering for a whole generation until they passed away and only the next/new generation was able to enter the promised land, even though they traveled together for that whole generation, so it was in the time of Christ and the apostles. Only the new generation, ie, the NC people entered into the Kingdom of God. It was the Christians of the first century who received the kingdom (see above vs 28).

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I don't see Christ's second coming in anything you've mentioned. Now, his kingdom is here, and was manifest on Pentecost through the Holy Spirit,
("I must go, so the comforter may come to you")- but the King has yet to put in his appearance to claim his kingdom. I don't think we'll ever agree on that point. So I'm going to leave that particular line of discussion behind. I don't believe I'll change your mind, and I know you won't change mine, so- as I said earlier- we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[gcdonner]

The NC began at the cross, but you lost your time context, there was a generation between the NC coming in and the OC vanishing away, however essentially you nailed it because when it was buried by Titus, then the OC was finished.
Just as the first generation of those who came out of Egypt ended up wandering for a whole generation until they passed away and only the next/new generation was able to enter the promised land, even though they traveled together for that whole generation, so it was in the time of Christ and the apostles. Only the new generation, ie, the NC people entered into the Kingdom of God. It was the Christians of the first century who received the kingdom (see above vs 28).

I agree with you on a lot of points, but I don't see Christ's second coming in anything you've mentioned. Now, his kingdom is here, and was manifest on Pentecost through the Holy Spirit,
("I must go, so the comforter may come to you")- but the King has yet to put in his appearance to claim his kingdom. I don't think we'll ever agree on that point. So I'm going to leave that particular line of discussion behind. I don't believe I'll change your mind, and I know you won't change mine, so- as I said earlier- we'll just have to agree to disagree.

From my perspective, you can't see because you are looking at it all from a carnal perspective. Do you remember the verse I quoted earlier on?

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 

Let me add a companion verse:

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

I am looking at things from the "not seen" ie, eternal perspective, while I suspect you are still looking expecting a physical/temporal appearance of Christ's return.

I may not change your mind, but you still deserve to know all the facts:

Josephus
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Josephus, Wars, Book 6, Chp. 5, Pg.742)

Compare this passage with Revelation 19:14 & Matthew 24:30!?

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Just some facts for you to consider.
I suggest you also consider the parable of Matt 22, especially regarding the kings armies...

Let me ask you, how many times did YHWH come down under the OC? Shorten that list, how many times did he come "on the clouds"?
I can provide a list of scriptures for both. I think you might be surprised, if you are really interested in the truth.

Is it your desire to conform to scripture or make scripture conform to your imagination? Think about it.

[singitagain]

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Act 1:9-11 NKJV)

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7 NKJV)

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.  (Dan. 2:44 NKJV)

But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.  (1 Cor. 15:23-26 NKJV)

To expect these verses to be fulfilled as they were written is not a sign of carnality, but of faith.

[Sudsy]

By the way, you say you've been watching our church online (or on your smart TV).

On my Smart TV through Youtube. Our MB church sermons are also available here - http://www.meadowbrook.ca/resources/resources/messages/

However, ours only include the sermons. I recently had a good time of fellowship with a local Salvation Army Major and he asked me if I had ever listened to Alistair Begg. He, too, had been following his ministry and enjoying it for some time. I think it is great when believers are able to learn from one another. I'm so looking forward to conversations amongst Christians when we will no longer be talking about our unique divisions as Christ followers and we will all join together in worship of the King.

[Outsider]

I may not change your mind, but you still deserve to know all the facts:

Josephus
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Josephus, Wars, Book 6, Chp. 5, Pg.742)

Compare this passage with Revelation 19:14 & Matthew 24:30!?

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

I think this is more like what they saw in the clouds:

Rev 12

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.