The Trinity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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gcdonner
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Re: The Trinity

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote: Why did it take another 50 years? Clarification, NOT nitpicking- for the simple minded perhaps? Who knows, we were not there. Why does it take countless pages on this forum to answer much simpler things that are wrangled about?

Why can you read accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke & John and find discrepancies in the various accounts? (this initially upset me when I received my Chronological Bible which would reveal that several of the stories had different facts)
Because we are human.
Do your homework on this one, Valerie, they were nit picking over forms of the words and tenses of the verbs and all that good stuff. You are too ready to accept everything the EO church says is fact...
Again, to bring 'clarification' to HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND-not shouting, emphasizing why. I have read all about the councils- to bring clarification. You don't have to agree with it, but neither do I have to disagree with it- I think it is important-
Check it out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoousion
Even some of the followers of Athanasius were uncomfortable with his definitions which were finally accepted at Nicea.
Homoiousios

Used by Eusebius of Caesarea, homoiousios means "of a similar substance". This is in contrast to the Nicene affirmation that Jesus and God the Father are homoousios, "of the same substance." Christians at that time believed that even if they were of similar substance, the result was a Jesus who was not identical with the redemptive God of the Old Testament. Furthermore, if he had a similar divine substance, an immediate problem arises with the doctrine of monotheism. Thus, at the Council of Nicea the church affirmed that Jesus and the Father were of the same substance.
It should be noted that this doctrine or forms of it split the church during the 7 councils of the church, which continued to debate that actual forms of the trinity doctrine, definitions of the members of the Godhead.
These councils continued from 325 - 787, still wrestling with this issue as well as others. It was FAR from a cut and dried, done deal in 325, contrary to what some are trying to say here. The trinity doctrine has been a contentious issue since it was first tried to be settled.
I don't believe that this was God's intention, nor that the "winning" party demonstrated that they were "right" and orthodox and everyone else was anathema.
This is an area that men should never have gotten involved in trying to define. "Let God be God..."
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Valerie
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Valerie »

It's not that men should not have tried to 'define' it, the Church had an understanding that Arius tried to undermine and change. Therefore HE is the one who was being a heretic- to say something different, than what Christ had said about Himself and the Apostles passed down.

I know that God wants Apostolic truth's defended- does He approve more, of arguing over the many many many things that we argue about? No- but the enemy does.

First of all you have to define what 'heresy' really is, since the Scripture warn against it and also, teach to 'deal with it'.
Anyone can change/edit Wikepedia but since this teaching is still upheld in many churches, not just Orthodox, & Catholic- many agree with the Nicene Creed and do not see it as 'contrary' to Scripture but it is more of a help to deal with destructive heresies- you seem to be putting the blame on the Church, more than the one who was trying to bring in HIS OWN understanding and spread it- see this is how denominations or cults start- it remains said in the Churches on a daily or weekly basis- as Truth. It helps rule out others who bring in teachings about Christ that are completely false- teachings like the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses have. There really is absolute Truth but- I agree there is somewhat of a mystery about the Godhead- . Think about it- if it wasn't important at all, why would Satan have used people to try to divide the Church about it? Put yourselves in the place of the early Church trying to deal with heresies, it was put in their hands, and made their responsibility- to deal with them- look at how the Churches today split over far less important issues? I have a teaching about the various heresies that would come up- and how they rear their heads today-

The Nicene Creed that brought more clarification in 381, is the same Creed that is said every week in the Church-
Again I think that some of us don't realize, because we were not there, how if you let one run amuck with their own understandings contrary to Apostolic doctrine, it opens the door to all kinds of heresies. It seems this thread is an example of how important it is for some to defend it. Equally important for some to come against it. Yet- to say it's not 'worth' defending and still make it important to insist on other teachings outside the 'norm' in various other doctrines of the faith and argue about those is somewhat the pot calling the kettle black-we simply were not there, when all these things came up to deal with. Let's not bite the hands of those who fed us- even canonized our Scriptures.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Trinity
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Neto
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Neto »

Valerie wrote:It's not that men should not have tried to 'define' it, the Church had an understanding that Arius tried to undermine and change. Therefore HE is the one who was being a heretic- to say something different, than what Christ had said about Himself and the Apostles passed down.

I know that God wants Apostolic truth's defended- does He approve more, of arguing over the many many many things that we argue about? No- but the enemy does.

First of all you have to define what 'heresy' really is, since the Scripture warn against it and also, teach to 'deal with it'.
Anyone can change/edit Wikepedia but since this teaching is still upheld in many churches, not just Orthodox, & Catholic- many agree with the Nicene Creed and do not see it as 'contrary' to Scripture but it is more of a help to deal with destructive heresies- you seem to be putting the blame on the Church, more than the one who was trying to bring in HIS OWN understanding and spread it- see this is how denominations or cults start- it remains said in the Churches on a daily or weekly basis- as Truth. It helps rule out others who bring in teachings about Christ that are completely false- teachings like the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses have. There really is absolute Truth but- I agree there is somewhat of a mystery about the Godhead- . Think about it- if it wasn't important at all, why would Satan have used people to try to divide the Church about it? Put yourselves in the place of the early Church trying to deal with heresies, it was put in their hands, and made their responsibility- to deal with them- look at how the Churches today split over far less important issues? I have a teaching about the various heresies that would come up- and how they rear their heads today-

The Nicene Creed that brought more clarification in 381, is the same Creed that is said every week in the Church-
Again I think that some of us don't realize, because we were not there, how if you let one run amuck with their own understandings contrary to Apostolic doctrine, it opens the door to all kinds of heresies. It seems this thread is an example of how important it is for some to defend it. Equally important for some to come against it. Yet- to say it's not 'worth' defending and still make it important to insist on other teachings outside the 'norm' in various other doctrines of the faith and argue about those is somewhat the pot calling the kettle black-we simply were not there, when all these things came up to deal with. Let's not bite the hands of those who fed us- even canonized our Scriptures.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Trinity
I wasn’t going to respond anymore in this thread, and maybe doing so is a mistake I will regret. So I’ll try to keep this very brief. While some of us see this doctrine as causing confusion over teaching actually found in the Scriptures, I’m not sure that anyone is exactly saying that it is a heresy, or that it is “contrary to Scripture”. The point some of us have attempted to make here is that it is necessary to go beyond Scripture in order to support it, so it may be correct, and it may be incorrect. That in itself is enough, at least for me, to say that we should not be going there. The Scripture teaches all we need to know to defend truth against heresy. Adding to the truth to protect the truth places one dangerously close to those who are openly heretical in belief. Look at where that got Eve. The Satan had a heyday with that one.

Can it be demonstrated from the Scriptures that the understanding of God represented by those who wrote these statements was not based on any human logical reasoning, but on Scripture alone?
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Wade
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Wade »

It seems like this discussion has turned more into a judging of who the information came from and their motive rather than seeking truth for ourselves... :? Certainly I don't have everything right and just because someone in the past had some things wrong doesn't automatically make it that they have everything wrong.

Is not telling someone to not define the Divine a contradiction in itself?

I appreciate the different perspectives and knowledge that each one shares. Can we do that in this thread without trying to figure out where others are wrong in their motives?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Wade wrote:It seems like this discussion has turned more into a judging of who the information came from and their motive rather than seeking truth for ourselves... :? Certainly I don't have everything right and just because someone in the past had some things wrong doesn't automatically make it that they have everything wrong.

Is not telling someone to not define the Divine a contradiction in itself?

I appreciate the different perspectives and knowledge that each one shares. Can we do that in this thread without trying to figure out where others are wrong in their motives?
I would say defining the Divine is an absolute impossibility. Yet, if we are to instruct those who seek to understand and join us, we must try.

J.M.
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EdselB
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Re: The Trinity

Post by EdselB »

Since this thread is in the Anabaptist theology and practice forum, I thought I would offer an early Anabaptist writing on the Trinty. Below is a translation of Hymn 81 from the Ausbund, which was written by Hans Betz, one of the prisoners in Passau Prison in the 1530s. The translation is by Robert A. Riall, and is found in his The Earliest Hymns of the Ausbund: Some Beautiful Christian Songs Composed and Sung in the Prison at Passau Published in 1564 (Pandora Press, 2003), 49-55.
1) Lord God Father, I cry to you, I pray, lend your wisdom to me that I may sing a song about the essence of your unity which manifests itself in the Trinity.
Lord God, let me succeed since surely you alone were and are eternally to all ages.
Without you there has never been anyone who could have accomplished this.
Whatever lives in heaven and on earth you alone have created. Your hand nourishes everything.

2) You must understand the Trinity as John indicates: he names them "Father, Word, and Spirit."
They are witnesses in heaven: the three names serve in one. You, indeed, should accept it.
The Father's omnipotent power appears among the creatures which he has made through the Word.
His Spirit empowers everything.
If he, therefore, should venture to gather the Spirit unto himself, all must pass away again.

3) That omnipotence is the Word; that power, the Holy Spirit, you have heard, is the Father alone, as the Scripture altogether supports.
It calls the Word "life and spirit," which was in the beginning with God, and God himself is the Word and one Spirit. Understand!
He sent his Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, which he called his Son, to Mary, the gentle virgin.
It was conceived in her, became flesh by the Holy Spirit.

4) You should certainly understand me. The Godhead cannot divide itself, as you see in the sun.
Christ's corning into this age happened only according to his humanity which he received.
The entire fullness of the Godhead actually was included in his humanity. In his spirit, Christ was God's Son.
He flowed out from God in the light and clear, bright brilliance which he covered with his pure humanity."

5) This cover, you should understand this way: as a cloud goes over the sun, so that it cannot be seen, thus here in this age was the light covered with humanity.
Truth makes us affirm it Christ is called "a light of the world," Scripture testifies to us, upon whom the Holy Spirit
descended out of heaven.
A voice occurred there:" "This is my beloved Son; hear him now."

6) Now, the Word came to earth and took to himself humanity, it happened because God was unbearable to men of this age because of his glory which no one may look upon, as Moses gives us account when he desired to view God's face.
Then the Lord said to him, "No man will remain alive: No one should see my form"; he showed Moses.

7) Since no one otherwise can see God, he therefore took on humanity; out of grace, then, he shone forth his light to all in this age.
He was visible according to his humanity so that he might teach us. God the Lord is himself truth.
Christ alone teaches us. "The Word, so I say in this time, is not mine but the Father's who is in me.
He relates the words," says the Lord Jesus Christ.

8) Divinity, therefore, has been here in the humanity of Jesus Christ, Paul tells us, so that God through himself might restore the human race as it fell from him.
The devil with his false counsel brought all men through Adam into sin and death.
They could no longer find the way to the tree of life. Christ has prepared it for us: he himself is the way.

9) When the Lord Jesus Christ finished his suffering here in that time, he went back to the Father into eternity.
Understand! Only according to his humanity has he again received glory, as he himself,
Christ the Lord, says—note precisely! "Father, as I had glory, before the foundation of the World was laid, give me the same again for I have fulfilled your will in this age."

10) Thus he went to the Father. There he received his glory from him, which, however, never was taken from him, you should understand, according to his divinity.
He has always had the light of the divine sun. Here the light alone was covered with his pure humanity, in this way the cover became glorious again in the Father's brilliance.
He is one essence there with him. In heaven and on earth the Lord Jesus Christ has authority.

11) Understand! The divine Trinity is subsumed in unity. Truly, in the pure sun— it shows us three effects in one: they are light, ray, and heat.
Understand! The light's brilliance, which indicates the Father, who has surrounded everything, he alone is the single good.
In him all lives. The Father's almighty power I have shown to you. At creation it was performed.

12) The ray's splendor—readily understand!— shows the zeal and righteousness which the Father has decreed
through his Word here in this time, which is his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to whom he will allow authority to hold judgment with righteousness over all unclean flesh.
The angels, as Peter describes, who will be included there, tremble at this zeal.
How will sinful man stand at the judgment?

13) Thirdly, you should understand me, the heat shows us the Holy Spirit so pure.
A possession, grace and mercy, a fiery tongue, Luke writes to us, is the Holy Spirit, who pours out into every heart.
In this way they receive Christ, and are allowed to taste his ecstasy and goodness, He teaches them also rightly to recognize the Father and the Son in unity make their dwelling among human beings in this time.

14) The divine Trinity, therefore, is included in this Unity.
Through the illustration of the sun, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one light, as the Scripture agrees and as you now have understood.
Note, therefore: the Word Jesus Christ is called Spirit and Life.
The Father is one Spirit and the Word, the Scripture testifies. John describes for us in this way the Unity: Father,
Son, and Spirit.

15) Whoever comes to this realization therefore stands in the power of God and may understand his Faith: in God the Father, omnipotence, who has created him now through Christ – understand!
The Father has begotten him again to be his son since he fell from God through sin and came into his wrath.
The Lord Jesus Christ has again reconciled him to himself and has become his mediator.

16) He, therefore, believes on Jesus Christ, who has become his righteousness, which has clothed him.
In this, the grace of God has effect which Christ has obtained for him with cross, dying, and suffering.
Understand the goodness of the Spirit! He has written the divine Word in his heart.
This separates him from all sin now. He overcomes it through the Holy Spirit

17) He thus believes in the Holy Spirit who shows him mercy, has surrounded him with it, and enrolled him in the Church which is preserved through the Holy Spirit unto life so that he does not come into judgment but is brought from death to life, Christ says.
He will come with him after the resurrection into the Father's glory.
He will glorify him and will be like the angels.

18) He knows, therefore, that in unity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwell with him.
He, therefore, is a child of God, and will be separated from sin.
Paul, therefore, says that he knows no one now according to the flesh. Understand!
Although we for a time knew Jesus Christ according to the flesh, we now know him no longer in the flesh.
Rather, only in the Spirit is he Lord.

19) You have understood, therefore, readily why Unity turns itself in Trinity to us; that God, because of humanity's weakness was incomprehensible in time.
He could not be understood.
God makes, therefore, a beginning, middle, and end for his creatures so that his essence will be understood by his Word alone.
If God had not named a Word for himself, he could not be spoken about. He has neither beginning nor end.

20) I, therefore, want to close. To God the Father in heaven's throne I give praise, honor, and glory through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who is one essence in the Father together with the Holy Spirit.
O Father in eternity, to you, to you alone be honor, for you have prepared us for yourself and have led us into your wisdom.
O Father! Still lead us onward so that we may obtain the crown in your kingdom. Amen.

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EdselB
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Re: The Trinity

Post by EdselB »

The term Trinty was not an invention of Nicea. Tertullian used it as well as the terms "substance" and "economy."

I have found helpful the lecture by D. Bercot. "What The Early Christians Believed About the Trinity."

It is available at:

https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product133.html
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Wade
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Wade »

EdselB wrote:The term Trinty was not an invention of Nicea. Tertullian used it as well as the terms "substance" and "economy."

I have found helpful the lecture by D. Bercot. "What The Early Christians Believed About the Trinity."

It is available at:

https://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product133.html
Thank you.

A couples hours late - I just put in an order... I would have added that if I seen it...
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Neto
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Neto »

So Menno Simons was not the only early anabaptist who slipped up and went beyond Scripture. (Referring to certain elements of his doctrine of the incarnation, that Mary contributed nothing to the child she bore, Jesus, the Son of God.) All the more important that we do not do the same. (I would excuse Hans Betz for his use of I John 5:7b-8, since he almost certainly had no access to early manuscripts of the Scripture, to see that parts of that text as he had it had been added by someone much later, probably in order to bolster their man-made doctrine of the trinity.)
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Frodo
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Re: The Trinity

Post by Frodo »



You can also watch this on YouTube.
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