Morals & ethics behind supporting certain mission efforts?

[Signtist]

Simple. Very simple. There are a lot of things that have simple formulas that are incredibly hard to implement and see through to completion. Anyway, I said I wasn't gonna argue, and I've gone ahead and argued.

Maybe we're addicted to the need to be right.

[Judas Maccabeus]

This subject should be spun off into its own thread. I see both Sightist's point and Josh's, both at the same time.

I'm not gonna fight about it. Josh is absolutely right that nobody quits until they hit rock bottom. He is also right that drug use is a choice. I doubt very much that he's correct when he says it's "ultimately easy."

If it's so simple, why are we such abject failures at helping people with addiction? "They just didn't want to be free badly enough." Sounds like a cliche cop out.

Glib clichés haven't solved the drug epidemic up until now, and I don't foresee them solving it in the near future.

Anyone who gives a Glib cliché does not understand the problem. My sister became an opiate addict, began with pain meds following surgery. Died of an overdose, or perhaps mixing alcohol with opiates. It was an orthopedic procedure on her hand, was prescribed Percocet, which is reasonable on the part of the doc. She wanted more. Doc cut her off, simply went to another doc, than another, than another. System in use at the time would not catch you if you avoided chains, and used the wonderful boundaries of the DMV to spread out her buys. Never could get her to quit, or into rehab. She was taking 90 mg. of Oxeycotin last time I saw her dose, four times a day. That would put me in respiratory arrest, for her, it just got the "monkey" off her back. Quitting is so devilishly hard that none of us cannot imagine the physical symptoms, the hallucinations , the knowledge with one pill or one needle the "monkey" will be off your back. Bad news is the longer acting stuff takes longer to get out of your system, so withdrawal lasts longer. Some of the stuff you just cannot quit without intense medical supervision. Cold turkey off of Barbiturates can indeed be fatal. I know I am not adequate in my description but it is the best I can write.

The problem it is an easy, slippery slope in, but an unbelievably brutal trip out.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Anyway I'm just rambling on but would love to hear more thoughts from others on this. Do you know personally of an unchurched person who became a Christian and quickly experienced radical changes in their lives ?

That should be a thread all in its own!

Me.

[Signtist]

This subject should be spun off into its own thread. I see both Sightist's point and Josh's, both at the same time.

I'm not gonna fight about it. Josh is absolutely right that nobody quits until they hit rock bottom. He is also right that drug use is a choice. I doubt very much that he's correct when he says it's "ultimately easy."

If it's so simple, why are we such abject failures at helping people with addiction? "They just didn't want to be free badly enough." Sounds like a cliche cop out.

Glib clichés haven't solved the drug epidemic up until now, and I don't foresee them solving it in the near future.

Anyone who gives a Glib cliché does not understand the problem. My sister became an opiate addict, began with pain meds following surgery. Died of an overdose, or perhaps mixing alcohol with opiates. It was an orthopedic procedure on her hand, was prescribed Percocet, which is reasonable on the part of the doc. She wanted more. Doc cut her off, simply went to another doc, than another, than another. System in use at the time would not catch you if you avoided chains, and used the wonderful boundaries of the DMV to spread out her buys. Never could get her to quit, or into rehab. She was taking 90 mg. of Oxeycotin last time I saw her dose, four times a day. That would put me in respiratory arrest, for her, it just got the "monkey" off her back. Quitting is so devilishly hard that none of us cannot imagine the physical symptoms, the hallucinations , the knowledge with one pill or one needle the "monkey" will be off your back. Bad news is the longer acting stuff takes longer to get out of your system, so withdrawal lasts longer. Some of the stuff you just cannot quit without intense medical supervision. Cold turkey off of Barbiturates can indeed be fatal. I know I am not adequate in my description but it is the best I can write.

The problem it is an easy, slippery slope in, but an unbelievably brutal trip out.

I'm sorry. That's tough.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm not gonna fight about it. Josh is absolutely right that nobody quits until they hit rock bottom. He is also right that drug use is a choice. I doubt very much that he's correct when he says it's "ultimately easy."

If it's so simple, why are we such abject failures at helping people with addiction? "They just didn't want to be free badly enough." Sounds like a cliche cop out.

Glib clichés haven't solved the drug epidemic up until now, and I don't foresee them solving it in the near future.

Anyone who gives a Glib cliché does not understand the problem. My sister became an opiate addict, began with pain meds following surgery. Died of an overdose, or perhaps mixing alcohol with opiates. It was an orthopedic procedure on her hand, was prescribed Percocet, which is reasonable on the part of the doc. She wanted more. Doc cut her off, simply went to another doc, than another, than another. System in use at the time would not catch you if you avoided chains, and used the wonderful boundaries of the DMV to spread out her buys. Never could get her to quit, or into rehab. She was taking 90 mg. of Oxeycotin last time I saw her dose, four times a day. That would put me in respiratory arrest, for her, it just got the "monkey" off her back. Quitting is so devilishly hard that none of us cannot imagine the physical symptoms, the hallucinations , the knowledge with one pill or one needle the "monkey" will be off your back. Bad news is the longer acting stuff takes longer to get out of your system, so withdrawal lasts longer. Some of the stuff you just cannot quit without intense medical supervision. Cold turkey off of Barbiturates can indeed be fatal. I know I am not adequate in my description but it is the best I can write.

The problem it is an easy, slippery slope in, but an unbelievably brutal trip out.

I'm sorry. That's tough.

I feel for every addict we come across. Periodically, one of them winds up at our church, we have very frequent fellowship meals, like about half the time . One stumbles in, is on the nod during the service, we feed, and try to get them to check into one of the two christian run treatment places. I have never had one accept yet. Never hand out money, except exact bus fare.

If someone is unwilling, someone is unwilling.

[steve-in-kville]

Often, the addict is willing to give up 99% of their problem, but not 100%, over to Jesus. One fellow I worked with for a while (and a few friends were trying to help get clean) quit using everything except cigarettes. Eventually, that 1% he wouldn't yield dragged him back down.

I also have seen men who have "addictions" to things like pornography, going to strip clubs, etc. who get mostly clean. But they won't give it up, 100%. They always want to save just one little bit. And they end up never getting free either.

That is a solid point. Let's take alcoholics* for example. I know many folks that go cold turkey and quit entirely, stay sober for a while (dry January?) but with the notion in the back of their head they can go back and drink "normal". They want to be free, but with the option of going back.

(* technically the term alcoholic doesn't exist anymore. It's now AUD or Alcoholic Use Disorder)

[Josh]

That is a solid point. Let's take alcoholics* for example. I know many folks that go cold turkey and quit entirely, stay sober for a while (dry January?) but with the notion in the back of their head they can go back and drink "normal". They want to be free, but with the option of going back.

(* technically the term alcoholic doesn't exist anymore. It's now AUD or Alcoholic Use Disorder)

A big part of AA is that you'll always be an "alcoholic" and you can't go back - not even 1 light beer.

Part of my viewpoint is from a history of using drugs and being an alcoholic. Perhaps it makes me a bit less sympathetic than some. I have given the lecture to quite a few people about how 99% won't cut it, you need to be 100%. At least some of them have been honest with me and said "I'm not going to completely give it up." I warned them that they will eventually lose everything, then. And unfortunately each one I stayed in touch with, eventually did...

[NedFlanders]

That is a solid point. Let's take alcoholics* for example. I know many folks that go cold turkey and quit entirely, stay sober for a while (dry January?) but with the notion in the back of their head they can go back and drink "normal". They want to be free, but with the option of going back.

(* technically the term alcoholic doesn't exist anymore. It's now AUD or Alcoholic Use Disorder)

A big part of AA is that you'll always be an "alcoholic" and you can't go back - not even 1 light beer.

Part of my viewpoint is from a history of using drugs and being an alcoholic. Perhaps it makes me a bit less sympathetic than some. I have given the lecture to quite a few people about how 99% won't cut it, you need to be 100%. At least some of them have been honest with me and said "I'm not going to completely give it up." I warned them that they will eventually lose everything, then. And unfortunately each one I stayed in touch with, eventually did...

Not only light beer. A quote from an AA and NA friend who has been sober for over 30 years, "Kombucha has a LOT of alcohol!" - his emphasis.

[steve-in-kville]

Not only light beer. A quote from an AA and NA friend who has been sober for over 30 years, "Kombucha has a LOT of alcohol!" - his emphasis.

Even the entire non-alcoholic rage that is gaining traction right now worries me. N/A beer, N/A spirits, etc. I feel it is still a wolf in sheep's clothing. The idea of having a "mocktail" gets someone in recovery a step away from adding liquor to it.

Just my opinion, though.

[Sudsy]

I lean toward the belief that quitting usually takes more than good intentions or a strong will. Drugs change the brain in ways that aversely affects the will and ability to chose rightly. To me, that is why a miracle is often required. One that involves a healing of the mind to even allow the decision to be set free.

And prayer and fasting on behalf of those addicted is very much involved. I believe we would see more results if the focus was more on prayer and fasting on behalf of those addicted and a belief that God can deliver us from any and all sins and their effects.

In my youth this was the approach taken and I know of many that were delivered from habits that were destroying them. I believe God healed their minds (what was not allowing them to chose rightly) and as in my family, made the drug undesireable.

I don't read in the NT where they used all kinds of other solutions but rather believing that the power of prayer can change anything. I believe God still works that way today if we would just follow His ways and especiallly get back to believing in the power of prayer and fasting.