Christians and Trans

[NedFlanders]

I’m not concerned with what the kingdoms of this world think. Of course they think those who have the peace that passes all understanding are crazy!

Now people like Ken are making a sane choice to believe lies. I feel much more comfortable telling him to repent or simply change his mind!

[Sudsy]

This thread is for discussing how we, as Christians who believe in creation as male and female, should relate to trans issues in the surrounding culture. Please do not debate whether the Bible teaches that - start a new thread if you want to do that. Please do not attack people, neither MN participants nor others. This thread is for us to explore how we respond.

I think the Bible is very clear that we were created as male and female. Today, many people in our surrounding culture no longer believe that your physical body knows whether you are male or female, we see definitions like this:

Sex and gender

In the English language, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in the vernacular. However, in a medical and technically scientific sense, these words are not synonymous. Increasingly, the term gender is being accepted to define psychophysiologic processes involved in identity and social role. Therefore, it is not uncommon to hear references to "gender" by professionals from numerous disciplines, including medicine, psychology, anthropology, and social science. Gender comes from the Latin word genus, meaning kind or race. It is defined by one's own identification as male, female, or other; gender may also be based on legal status, social interactions, public persona, personal experiences, and psychologic setting.

Sex, from the Latin word sexus, is defined by the gonads, or potential gonads, either phenotypically or genotypically. It is generally assigned at birth based on external genital appearance due to the common assumption that this represents chromosomal or internal anatomic status. When a newborn presents with ambiguous genitalia, the sex of rearing is determined by the multidisciplinary team in partnership with the family, depending on multiple factors, with the understanding that the child will define their own gender identity over time, which may or may not be congruent with the sex of rearing.

That strikes me as deeply wrong. I think our bodies know if we are male or female, and I think that is rooted in God's creation. But just calling it "evil" or saying nasty things about the people who believe this doesn't seem to convince anyone.

How should we, as Christians, approach this?

I'm not going to speak for how all Christians should approach this but will give the view I have taken.

I believe many of us came into this world with some 'unnatural' (not the norm) things in our bodies and/or the ways our minds work such as how we understand what sex we are. When the mind is not in sync with our bodily parts, I look at this as an affect of the fall of mankind when sin entered the world. It is one of many abnormal ways that sin has affected human life.

However, I also believe that the scripture says wherever sin abounds that grace abounds all the more. In other words, God will give us the grace needed to overcome/deal with these abnormal ways of thinking. If I understand scripture to say homosexual activity is a sin, then I am responsible for how I avoid this sinning. Those of us who don't have these unnatural drawings to the same sex, should pray for and encourage those who are making efforts in this battle of the mind. I agree that just calling this 'evil' is not going to change anything.

What seems to be doubted by some believers is that God can miraculously change that mindset and they have been influenced by the world that they dare not try this as the world has accepted this abnormal thinking as normal for some but not others. But for those who try to 'pray the gay away' as some put it and it doesn't go away, there is another way to deal with it. God may chose not to change that mindset.

An example of living with something that is a struggle is the story of Paul regarding his thorn in the flesh. Whatever this thorn was for Paul, and he prayed for it to go away, he was not healed/delivered from it. Paul then was told by the Lord that this was an opportunity for him and need not be looked at as a hindrance. It would cause Paul to rely all the more on God's grace to live victorious with it. I think this is a good story to share with those struggling with that sin area and for them too to take a positive view on it. And the same goes for areas we all have trouble overcoming in our lives.

Anyway I don't believe I need to think like the world does in accommodating things I believe scripture says is sinning but rather I should ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit on how best to be an encouragement to others struggling in certain areas of sin. If I had this mindset, how would I want other believers to treat me ? I would hope not with condemnation but rather honesty and encouragement in my struggle.

[Neto]

I think that something that should be said early in any conversation where this issue comes up is that an urge or temptation to do any given thing is not the same as the life style that chooses to embrace that urge or temptation. A person may admit that they are, for example, an addict, but determine not to live the life of an addict (or an alcoholic. etc.). [EDIT: I may not have stated this as clearly as I would hope. What I mean is that the temptation is not sin. So we can encourage those who face any temptation by making it clear that they are not condemned just because they have those urges - neither by God, nor by us.]

(A fellow missionary readily admitted that he was an alcoholic, knowing that where as someone else might be able to drink a bit of wine at a social event w/o getting drunk, but he was determined to stay away from it, because he knew what would happen if he took that first drink. A guy I went to Bible college with came after he'd been a Christian and off of drugs for just 6 months. Another mutual friend was with him hitchhiking, and they were picked up by some hippies, who passed them a 'reefer'. He gave in, and as soon as he took the first couple drags on it, he was 'gone'. His system had no tolerance for it. I lost track of him after that year in Bible college, so I don't know how he has done in the long run.)

[Soloist]

Wife: To answer op question, I seem to run into this a lot at fast food and sometimes at the grocery store (probably more so up north, but the south seems to have several too). Seems like Wendy's around here employs a few and bk had one as well. I make a point to be friendly/chat because I see so many people act outright rude and hateful to them (I mentioned before the incident at Fred Meyer). I figure it makes an opening for conversation, and had the one guy at BK ask about pretzels for one of his coworkers, and i figure if I do get asked anything, I'm not going to lie about what the Bible says, and I don't have to use names/pronouns anyway in those situations.

With my neice, I contact her directly to avoid the issue with name/pronouns and send steam gift cards, which allow me to just use the username, as opposed to mailing something with her name or whatever. I think that I can honor my convictions on not pretending she's a male without throwing it in her face. Her dad actually also has changed his name and identifies as a "they", and the same goes for him, although we will often text him asking how they're all doing, fish tank questions, etc.

We had a talk with the children last time we went to visit soloist's brother in Oregon that he was probably going to be dressed as a girl, etc., and that we should be nice to him and not gawk, because God loves him and wants him to repent, and not for us to hate him. I think we just told them not to call him by name and they were so busy seeing all his animals that it wasn't an issue. We had another talk with the children in the car yesterday, because now that my son is sitting in the front seat, he noticed the new person when we went to get our Wendy's Frosty's, and, like a typical child, had his jaw halfway down, and had whispered something to me about how that guy was pretending he was a girl while we were still next to the window. We basically told them all that it is sinful, but a lot of these people are emotionally fragile, a few may have been abused, and have been fed lies that this is the solution to their problems. We also told them about the occasional hormone inbalances ect that they might also come across and not to stare at people, including short people, or with other deformities, and to please please please save all questions until we are somewhere more private.

So, in a nutshell, I think we should show love for the transgender person without going along with the delusion, but still trying to be respectful and kind. Sort of like I don't have to constantly announce my opinion on divorce and remarriage or cohabitation before marriage when I'm talking to a person unless it actually comes up. I think all these situations require a lot of prayer for wisdom, and also for the person's salvation.

[mike]

The only trans or gay persons I have had much contact with have been employees, and in each case they lasted such a short time on the job due to issues unrelated to sexuality that I barely got to know them at all. I believe in treating trans persons professionally in the workplace and even in terms of personal relationships as much as possible, but I would have a similar social distance between them and myself that I would have in relation to someone who is living in adultery or fornication or other state of unrepentant sexual sin.

[Bootstrap]

So, in a nutshell, I think we should show love for the transgender person without going along with the delusion, but still trying to be respectful and kind. Sort of like I don't have to constantly announce my opinion on divorce and remarriage or cohabitation before marriage when I'm talking to a person unless it actually comes up. I think all these situations require a lot of prayer for wisdom, and also for the person's salvation.

I agree completely.

With my neice, I contact her directly to avoid the issue with name/pronouns and send steam gift cards, which allow me to just use the username, as opposed to mailing something with her name or whatever. I think that I can honor my convictions on not pretending she's a male without throwing it in her face. Her dad actually also has changed his name and identifies as a "they", and the same goes for him, although we will often text him asking how they're all doing, fish tank questions, etc.

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

[QuietlyListening]

My oldest teaches at the local university. She has a few trans or nonbinary students in her class and has been given their chosen pronouns. She addresses them by their proper name and avoids pronouns. For the most part she doesn't need to address the persons individually as the classes are fairly large.
But mostly she wants to treat them with compassion and respect in that each one is a student- a fellow human being.

But I agree with many- we must try to extend compassion and the love of Christ. I feel is someone is so unhappy they want to change their sex- they need compassion and most of all they need the Lord. It is heartbreaking to think someone is so unhappy they would go to such lengths and think this will bring happiness.
Too many are committing suicide and young folks who are unsure of so much in the world and unsure of where they fit in- we should not be encouraging them to make a change that will be very difficult if not impossible to undo and where does that leave them.

[RZehr]

Why should secular society need to accept them the way they are, when they didn’t?

[Bootstrap]

Why should secular society need to accept them the way they are, when they didn’t?

I don't know. But that's a question for secular authority, isn't it?

This thread is about our response.

[ohio jones]

Could a moderator please move Ken's posts to his own thread.

They have been moved to Bunny Trails, and this is now a Ken-free thread.