Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote:
That is in God's hands, to judge-
What does the OE church teach will happen to a 15 year old who dies not having believed or been baptized?
Do you mean if they 'rejected' the Gospel? Or simply that they never heard it (ignorant of it?)
Either.
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silentreader
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
Valerie wrote: I believe the Apostles baptized infants- I don't think that Christians who said the Apostles taught it,, made that up. For one thing, every single country where the Apostles took the faith, the Church in all of these countries- baptize infants, and they become a part of the Church.

We have 5 accounts of whole households being baptized (and apparently those are the only ones recorded, we can assume this was common practice) and it's strange to think that none of these households had infants or children in them- that they were a household of 'grown ups' only. What, if Mary left home at 15 being the Mother of our Lord, we have all these other households with just grown ups living in them? Highly unlikely. I think it's just as the early writers/fathers said- the Apostles taught them to. We have no record of this practice all of a sudden starting and there was no one 'pope' or council meeting, as everything in the Church where there was any controversy, was settled by councils. Yet none seems to exist about it and everywhere throughout the world the Gospel was taken, baptized infants of Christian families.

You left out the account of Lydia in Acts 16, I understand why:

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

So apparently all these grown ups lived together, no children, no infants- all these households that were baptized at once? This is why it is difficult to answer the question of this topic- there is no scripture guiding people outside the original church at some age of accountability- there's nothing in the new testament about that.
There is nothing at all difficult to understand about these accounts of households being baptized (btw, in case you wondered, I just used the first household example that came to my mind; the account of Lydia makes no trouble whatsoever for my position). The ease with which the authors talk about the entire household believing, and the entire household praising God, makes it quite clear that they are discussing the adult members of the household.
Valerie wrote: Jesus made it clear:
Matthew 19:14King James Version (KJV)
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Sure enough. In the context, you will notice that the people were bringing the children to Him for Him to bless them, not for him to baptize them.
Valerie wrote: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Peter's words here prove exactly my point. He said to repent and be baptized. He didn't tell them to baptize their children. The same command and promise is also to their children and everyone else. There is no mention of infants in what Peter said.
Valerie wrote: I don't think you have to torture the Scriptures to see it, you merely have to believe the passages that support it and believe those who claimed the Apostles taught it, and also know it's been the tradition of the Church wherever the Gospel was taken for 2000 years with some exceptions of denominations after the Reformation- while some kept it- I don't think it's difficult to understand this.
You left out the part about having to ignore all the Scriptures that teach repentance as a prerequisite for baptism. You have to do that too.
I really did used to believe exactly like you Ken- honestly, for over 40 years and it was difficult to even consider otherwise- but I have come to the conclusion that these assumptions are really the result of trying to understand this by Scripture alone, and the Church was never "Scripture Alone"- which is why in every single country where the Gospel was taken, infants & children were baptized, those born of Christian parents. The ancient faith has a much broader and deeper understanding of baptism and communion (Eucharist) and it seems obvious to me that all the other denominations are really guessing their way through this as best they can, and I can admit this- but if the Holy Spirit was guiding all these denominations they would surely be closer to practicing the same thing- it is more indicative of human reason, trying to understand it without the Holy Tradition of the Church- the pillar and ground of the Truth-
Remember that Paul did warn that people would turn away from truth, and this began to happen very early in church history, infant baptism is a logical consequence of that.
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote: Remember that Paul did warn that people would turn away from truth, and this began to happen very early in church history, infant baptism is a logical consequence of that.
"Some" would depart from the faith but the majority, worldwide, remained and continued the Apostolic faith-
the Apostasy, or falling away from THE faith, precedes Christ's second Advent,(His glorious return)- so it's probably more since the Reformation where Christianity split into so many varieties of interpretations and sects that continue to split and sect again these last centuries that the falling away seems to be referring to.
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silentreader
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote: Remember that Paul did warn that people would turn away from truth, and this began to happen very early in church history, infant baptism is a logical consequence of that.
"Some" would depart from the faith but the majority, worldwide, remained and continued the Apostolic faith-
the Apostasy, or falling away from THE faith, precedes Christ's second Advent,(His glorious return)- so it's probably more since the Reformation where Christianity split into so many varieties of interpretations and sects that continue to split and sect again these last centuries that the falling away seems to be referring to.
I was thinking of Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders and John's letters to the churches in Revelation, as well as John having to deal with the Gnostic heresy.
I reiterate, it is clear that falling away began very early in church history. Even the words of Jesus show us that it is not the majority, but the few, that remain faithful.
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote: Remember that Paul did warn that people would turn away from truth, and this began to happen very early in church history, infant baptism is a logical consequence of that.
"Some" would depart from the faith but the majority, worldwide, remained and continued the Apostolic faith-
the Apostasy, or falling away from THE faith, precedes Christ's second Advent,(His glorious return)- so it's probably more since the Reformation where Christianity split into so many varieties of interpretations and sects that continue to split and sect again these last centuries that the falling away seems to be referring to.
I was thinking of Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders and John's letters to the churches in Revelation, as well as John having to deal with the Gnostic heresy.
I reiterate, it is clear that falling away began very early in church history. Even the words of Jesus show us that it is not the majority, but the few, that remain faithful.
Compared to the entire world, Christianity is a few yes- but the 7 churches Jesus addressed were a handful compared to myriads of other churches by this time- those were a handful, and they were the ones Apostle John was Bishop over in that part of Asia- but the Apostles started churches in many countries. But none of those things Jesus addressed to the 7 churches had anything to do with baptism at all- I do appreciate what Jesus was addressing to the 5 churches that needed repentance, of what He was pointing out and we need to always be mindful of those things- He also pointed out the things they were doing right- I am not sure how He would address the Church at large today because now it is not by 'location' only but myriads of different interpretations/denominations- doctrine is one of the issues He addressed to them. I just think it is not a correct assumption that 'infant baptism' was considered falling away because it was said that the Apostles taught it.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie wrote:Do you mean if they 'rejected' the Gospel? Or simply that they never heard it (ignorant of it?)
At what age is a person capable of "rejecting" the Gospel? Obviously a six month old child cannot reject the Gospel. Can a five-year-old reject the Gospel in such a way that he would be barred from Paradise if he died unbaptized?
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silentreader
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote: "Some" would depart from the faith but the majority, worldwide, remained and continued the Apostolic faith-
the Apostasy, or falling away from THE faith, precedes Christ's second Advent,(His glorious return)- so it's probably more since the Reformation where Christianity split into so many varieties of interpretations and sects that continue to split and sect again these last centuries that the falling away seems to be referring to.
I was thinking of Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders and John's letters to the churches in Revelation, as well as John having to deal with the Gnostic heresy.
I reiterate, it is clear that falling away began very early in church history. Even the words of Jesus show us that it is not the majority, but the few, that remain faithful.
Compared to the entire world, Christianity is a few yes- but the 7 churches Jesus addressed were a handful compared to myriads of other churches by this time- those were a handful, and they were the ones Apostle John was Bishop over in that part of Asia- but the Apostles started churches in many countries. But none of those things Jesus addressed to the 7 churches had anything to do with baptism at all- I do appreciate what Jesus was addressing to the 5 churches that needed repentance, of what He was pointing out and we need to always be mindful of those things- He also pointed out the things they were doing right- I am not sure how He would address the Church at large today because now it is not by 'location' only but myriads of different interpretations/denominations- doctrine is one of the issues He addressed to them. I just think it is not a correct assumption that 'infant baptism' was considered falling away because it was said that the Apostles taught it.
It is quite possible that the letters to the 7 churches are recorded because their differences and similarities were a representative sample of the churches of that time, certainly there are similarities to churches of today. And it was not the 7 churches that were the "few", but rather the "few" were those within the 7 churches who had remained faithful.
And I am not saying there are no oral traditions, but when they contradict Scripture, they become suspect.
And that is why when "it is said that the Apostles taught it" comes up it raises warnings in my mind. Because I do not believe that it is possible to honestly reconcile "infant baptism" with the NT model of "believers baptism".
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Valerie
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
I was thinking of Paul's warning to the Ephesian elders and John's letters to the churches in Revelation, as well as John having to deal with the Gnostic heresy.
I reiterate, it is clear that falling away began very early in church history. Even the words of Jesus show us that it is not the majority, but the few, that remain faithful.
Compared to the entire world, Christianity is a few yes- but the 7 churches Jesus addressed were a handful compared to myriads of other churches by this time- those were a handful, and they were the ones Apostle John was Bishop over in that part of Asia- but the Apostles started churches in many countries. But none of those things Jesus addressed to the 7 churches had anything to do with baptism at all- I do appreciate what Jesus was addressing to the 5 churches that needed repentance, of what He was pointing out and we need to always be mindful of those things- He also pointed out the things they were doing right- I am not sure how He would address the Church at large today because now it is not by 'location' only but myriads of different interpretations/denominations- doctrine is one of the issues He addressed to them. I just think it is not a correct assumption that 'infant baptism' was considered falling away because it was said that the Apostles taught it.
It is quite possible that the letters to the 7 churches are recorded because their differences and similarities were a representative sample of the churches of that time, certainly there are similarities to churches of today. And it was not the 7 churches that were the "few", but rather the "few" were those within the 7 churches who had remained faithful.
And I am not saying there are no oral traditions, but when they contradict Scripture, they become suspect.
And that is why when "it is said that the Apostles taught it" comes up it raises warnings in my mind. Because I do not believe that it is possible to honestly reconcile "infant baptism" with the NT model of "believers baptism".
I can understand where you are coming from- yet I can assure you, that just as you can't see it from Scripture, those who practiced it from the beginning, wouldn't see how you 'couldn't' see it from Scripture, they use many passages to confirm their belief in it- but indeed they have oral traditions handed down as well. And it seems you are speculating- do you trust the Church that canonized the very Scriptures you believe?

In the year 180, Irenaeus had this to say:

"The Church having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it....For the churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egpt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But just as the sun, the creation of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shines everywhere, and enlightens all men who are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. "

He also says in 180 A.D. :

"To which course, many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit. Without paper or ink, they carefully preserve the ancient tradition.....Those who have believed this faith without any written documents are barbarians as to language. But as to doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed."

It verifies the unity of the faith & traditions and the work of the Spirit.
Before, I couldn't really have seen it by Scripture but I do see the implication of Scriptures, and considering the Jews that started the faith, wouldn't leave their children as 'outside' the faith or church and the only way, as Apostle Paul said of the Believing parent "Now your children are clean and holy" that would imply to be that way, clean and holy, they were baptized along with the rest of the household- and so we see by tradition throughout the world with the exception of some, it was common. We do not see anything in the New Testament about delaying a child's baptism, or any teaching from Jesus or the APostles about some age of accountability- that was a man made teaching from what I understand
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

Post by ken_sylvania »

Valerie, what does EOCC tradition teach about the fate of a 15 year old person who has not been baptized and who has rejected the gospel? Will they go to paradise?
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Josh
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Re: Baptism and the Age of Accountability

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Within a century there wasn't unity between the Nestorians / Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic (Orthodox), and the Catholic Orthodox. That's a solid 4 divisions within one man's lifetime.
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