Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Soloist
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Soloist » Thu May 18, 2017 5:41 pm

Josh wrote:A typical Western church service has a "holy hug" with random strangers seated next to you, which I find neither holy, nor does it really serve the same purpose as "greeting one another with a holy kiss".

It remains a mystery to me why greeting one another with a holy kiss is "sex inappropriate activity" - people in Europe & the Middle East frequently greet one another, even people who are business associates and their friendship is based around that, that way. There's something weird about how prudish Americans are about this.


I'll throw this out there... no western church I was ever in did hugs... it often was handshake or just say hello. Intent might have been for fellowship, but it ends up seeming fake and trivial in most western churches I ever was at.

As for the other part, how about for men or women who struggle with sexual purity towards the same gender? Do we tell them they must do the holy kiss?
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Sudsy » Thu May 18, 2017 8:56 pm

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Using the same logic, that it is not the actual lifting of the hands as required, I would suggest that a 'hearty handshake' keeps the principle behind the "holy kiss" in tact. And besides we don't need to act out same sex inappropriate activity nowadays, do we ? :?


A typical Western church service has a "holy hug" with random strangers seated next to you, which I find neither holy, nor does it really serve the same purpose as "greeting one another with a holy kiss".

It remains a mystery to me why greeting one another with a holy kiss is "sex inappropriate activity" - people in Europe & the Middle East frequently greet one another, even people who are business associates and their friendship is based around that, that way. There's something weird about how prudish Americans are about this.


Imo, you avoided the point that a different action on principle is applied to the holy kiss than is being applied to lifting of hands in prayer. In our culture here in NA I think most people, believers and unbelievers would not be comfortable with two men kissing one another as a greeting. They may in some other areas of the world but not here. Here those men would be suspected as being homosexual. This is not being prudish but how our culture views this, imo.

I have also not been in one of these 'typical Western' churches that hugs random strangers seated next to them. What I have seen as common, and in our MB church, there is a time given to shake hands with everyone within close walking distance of your pew. We also have people, usually husband and wife, that meet everyone that enters the church with a welcoming greeting and a handshake. Some of the women hug and also a few men. I get the occasional hug from a woman and this I find uncomfortable unless they are quite elderly. Well, should I say perhaps 10 years older than me.

So, what is the purpose of "greeting one another with a holy kiss" that cannot be achieved by a hearty handshake and/or a hug ?
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Valerie » Thu May 18, 2017 10:01 pm

Sudsy I don't know if you would be interested in me posting all the early church writers/fathers quotes I read about 'lifting holy hands in prayer' - but there are a handful to shed more light on this if you would like me to post them (from David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs).
However I will say that in drawings from the catacombs that I've seen posted online or in books- veiled women were also lifting their hands -

In the Orthodox Church we attended awhile when it came time for the recital of the Lord's Prayer, hands were lifted during this prayer-
I've been in Orthodox Churches that practiced the Holy Kiss at a specific time, and in others, just in a greeting-

Hugging was something I/we experienced in the Pentecostal Church but not at a specific time, and only when you wanted to greet SOMEONE YOU KNEW this way- no 'hugging on command'- but often a pastor will say "turn around and greet someone by you (or similar announcement) but it's always been a shaking of the hands, or with the women, grasping each others hand and greeting them-

Kneeling we were always accustomed to in the Pentecost setting, not at a prescribed time necessarily, it could take place on your own, at your own seat, or go up to the altar to kneel and pray and to have someone come along side you there to pray with you-

In the Orthodox Church kneeling is always done & certain points of the Divine Liturgy Service, and there are people who might prostrate as well (prostrating was not REAL common in the Pentecost Church but you would see it, normally the same people generally did this)

Just observations we had- and in the churches where hands were lifted up in prayer, or during worship, and there were no headcoverings, it was because of the 'explanation' of 1 Cor. 11 that most outside of Anabaptism and EO have been taught this last almost century (of course the Catholics covered too, they were one of the last to discard this as the Pope apparently allowed them to attend church without a veil/hat or whatever as of 1978)
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby JimFoxvog » Fri May 19, 2017 7:10 am

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Josh wrote:There's something weird about how prudish Americans are about this.


It's odd. No one seems to be very prudish about the rest of the sex-saturated culture.

I think the sex-saturated culture is the whole reason for this attitude. Those who hug or do a holy kiss are meaning nothing sexual, but people now days interpret any kind of touch in terms of sex. I've read about the early church's use of anointing. It often was rubbing the whole body with oil. To today's society that cries out "SEXUAL!".
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Sudsy » Fri May 19, 2017 7:11 am

Sorry Adam. I think the lifting of hands took off beyond your OP. My bad. I will create a thread for this although much has been already said we might want to talk more about prayer postures.

Valerie, thankyou for your offer to post
all the early church writers/fathers quotes I read about 'lifting holy hands in prayer' - but there are a handful to shed more light on this if you would like me to post them (from David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs).


Could you do this on this new thread called 'Prayer Postures', thankyou.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby KingdomBuilder » Fri May 19, 2017 8:49 am

JimFoxvog wrote:I think the sex-saturated culture is the whole reason for this attitude. Those who hug or do a holy kiss are meaning nothing sexual, but people now days interpret any kind of touch in terms of sex. I've read about the early church's use of anointing. It often was rubbing the whole body with oil. To today's society that cries out "SEXUAL!".


I think you're onto something
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Josh
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Josh » Fri May 19, 2017 9:14 am

JimFoxvog wrote:
KingdomBuilder wrote:
Josh wrote:There's something weird about how prudish Americans are about this.


It's odd. No one seems to be very prudish about the rest of the sex-saturated culture.

I think the sex-saturated culture is the whole reason for this attitude. Those who hug or do a holy kiss are meaning nothing sexual, but people now days interpret any kind of touch in terms of sex. I've read about the early church's use of anointing. It often was rubbing the whole body with oil. To today's society that cries out "SEXUAL!".


Not to mention baptisms were stark naked, just like using miqvahs was. (And look into why miqvahs were used and then think about the symbolism there.) Likewise, footwashing was a cross gender thing and in fact doing is listed as a criteria for an elderly woman of good repute.

Modern Anabaptists would have a collective panic attack about these things.
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby MaxPC » Fri May 19, 2017 10:05 am

Adam wrote:I want to ask a few simple questions about head coverings. I do not want to debate this topic in this thread. Rather I just want simple, straightforward answers to the following questions:

Are there Conservative Anabaptist Churches (or other churches for that matter) that teach and practice that the head covering is only required to be worn during worship services? If so, are such churches found within a particular denomination/conference or are they more independent? In general, how do other Conservative Anabaptist churches feel about churches that teach that the head covering only needs to be worn during worship services?

Adam, great thread. Now that others have weighed in, I'll share what goes on in Catholic World. Up til the 60s, coverings/mantillas were worn to Mass by nearly every woman. It was unthinkable for woman to be there without her head covered. Outside of the Mass, cultural traditions varied on coverings. When the Plain Catholics emerged about 100 years ago, we adopted full-time covering for Scriptural reasons along with modesty. As we have farms and ranches, our clothing reflects the farm clothing of that era with minor changes through the years. In short we don't follow fads.

In the past ten years or so, young women have been wearing veils to Mass again, because of Scripture and tradition.

Here's the link to our reasons for headcovering and modesty. Scriptural reasons are farther down the page.
Plain Catholic Clothing
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Sudsy
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Sudsy » Fri May 19, 2017 7:36 pm

Josh wrote:Not to mention baptisms were stark naked, just like using miqvahs was. (And look into why miqvahs were used and then think about the symbolism there.) Likewise, footwashing was a cross gender thing and in fact doing is listed as a criteria for an elderly woman of good repute.

Modern Anabaptists would have a collective panic attack about these things.


If water baptism was considered a point of regeneration, which it is with some, then I think the act of baptism was seen as being born again and thus the nakedness. Both physical and spiritual birth beginning with being naked. How this shifted from what the NT says about water baptism where no need for nakedness or pre-fasting or cold running water, etc is, to me, how man is often adding to what God has said and demonstrated through the earliest church.

Wasn't footwashings a common practise back then when one entered the door of someone's house ? And if so, how did this event get to be a once a year practise by those who still do it ? Is it about having dirty, dusty feet or should that matter ? Actually if I recall in my family, back when they would do the footwashing they made sure their feet were spotless before the community footwash. And is it only a once a year act of humility that gives folks satisfaction they are still following the practise ? Perhaps others can help me understand this better as a modern day ordinance.
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Re: Simple Questions About Head Coverings

Postby Josh » Fri May 19, 2017 8:25 pm

The act of baptism was directly tied to the Judaism ritual of miqvah which was ritual purification, typically done after anything that made you ritually unclean.
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