Modesty & Simplicity

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by TeleBodyofChrist »

RZehr wrote:Would you have any qualms about owning a mansion or driving luxury cars? You decide what qualifies as such.
Why or why not?
I realized I did not answer your question yet. No, because I do not think being rich or owning such things is a sin.

Reading some of the comments it seems that many think being rich in itself is a sin. Unless, I am misunderstanding.

I think the problem with being comfortable (this does not mean necessarily mean rich either) is that people will not want to lose that comfort. That is why Jesus said what he did about a rich man entering heaven.

When you have nothing you are looking at the reward in heaven. When you have a lot you are tied to earthly treasures.

That does not mean it is impossible for someone with money to reach heaven, just that it can be a stumbling block for them.

Really anything that someone holds onto (relationships, jobs, etc.) can turn into a stumbling block if they fear losing it more than they fear God.

As far as what someone spends on lunch... I can not judge about that. I do not know what someone who pays $30.00 for lunch has done elsewhere with their blessing. Maybe they support a school financially or soup kitchen. It is hard to know and really we are not supposed to advertise what we do to help others anyway.

Plus, I am not sure how making themselves poor to make others feel good helps anyone. There is so much they could do with their blessing and good stewardship.
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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RZehr wrote:Ah, go ahead Adam. I do want to focus on N America, but maybe it is important to talk about perspective here. If someone has something on that go ahead....

Adam, maybe I'll start by challenging you a little on your statement that the billions of people look at our modest homes and consider them to be extravagant. I'm sure there are some that would feel that way if they considered the house in isolation, or in comparison with their own. But at the same time I believe many of them would be able to see and understand that in the N American context, the home would be average.
Yes, I think they would see that the home would be average in the N American context, and they would gladly live in one of those average homes because it would be like a mansion to them. My point is that we have to be careful about who we are comparing ourselves to so as not to be too quick to justify ourselves. Donald Trump is poor compared to Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. And poor North Americans are rich compared to people in the third world.
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Valerie
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Valerie »

To answer the question in the OP- yes I would have qualms about owning a mansion. To me, it is a poor witness- and testimony of what being a Christian is about and what our priorities should be. Why would that be important to me to own a mansion? Jesus said:

John 14:2-3King James Version (KJV)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

BUT HERE, we are to convey that these things are not important to us and if He is in us, we should make what was important to Him HERE important to us-

Car?
I have never desired a 'luxury' car but have been enticed to want to own unique cars- like I love the original T-Bird- however again I feel like my witness should not convey a love for material things being priority- I DO need a good dependable care that I don't worry about breaking down- so for that reason I tend to buy new cars with warranty because I don't need to worry about the problems that go along with breaking down (been there done that enough) and hubby doesn't drive to come rescue me in cases like that- I drive a VW Tiguan- but I leased it because when I needed a dependable car, that was the best option at the time- I don't usually lease-
I hate my own heart when I arrive at Church and start judging what people drive to Church as I see a lot of expensive cars but the church is in an affluent area- I realize then ratio may mean these expensive cars to ME wouldn't be for them- however again, I think it does speak of a witness.

The doctor that led my mom to Christ (or was very instrumental into drawing her) had a very humble home, and drove an older car- his doctor's office was old- but he had a Jesus heart, would occasionally not even charge my mom- his witness is what drew my mom to start attending his church and from there became a Christian- what he 'didn't' do with his money but could have, spoke volumes to her.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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RZehr wrote:
JimFoxvog wrote:There are a lot of homeless people. A big mansion would give lots of rooms to be able to share with those who need a space inside and an address.
If you could easily afford it, and it was under priced, why not just live in it yourself? And support the local homeless shelter financially, since/if they are better equipped to help?
To me, there is a whole different feel to the institutionalism of a homeless shelter, and someone sharing their home with someone in need. The level of personal interaction is different.

I have no need for a lot of space unless I were to share it. It would take a lot of energy to heat in our climate, and energy generation is a major cause of pollution and strife; it's not right for me to use more than my fair share. A mansion could also be used as a place of meetings for a church; but then why not donate it to the church? Maybe useful as a place for meetings of many sorts, not just the church?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by JimFoxvog »

RZehr wrote: I'm asking if you are okay with living far more luxuriously, and extravagantly than your neighbors. I'm not asking if it is okay to buy a large house in order to open it up to the homeless.
I think this sums it up well; I am not OK with living far more extravagantly than my neighbors.
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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It is not realistic for someone who is publicly known to be wealthy to live in a regular neighborhood or dwelling. People who were poor and became rich and tried to stay in the neighborhood they lived in before had to leave as they became targets. Therefore, they moved into an area that was much more affluent and safe for their new circumstances.

I want to be careful in judging people based on material things that do not matter. I do not think if someone owns a luxury car that automatically means they are not a Christian or not a good witness. I do not know what is in their heart. I want to make sure I am not focused on the outside of others so much that I suffer in my own walk.
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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TeleBodyofChrist wrote:It is not realistic for someone who is publicly known to be wealthy to live in a regular neighborhood or dwelling. People who were poor and became rich and tried to stay in the neighborhood they lived in before had to leave as they became targets. Therefore, they moved into an area that was much more affluent and safe for their new circumstances.

I want to be careful in judging people based on material things that do not matter. I do not think if someone owns a luxury car that automatically means they are not a Christian or not a good witness. I do not know what is in their heart. I want to make sure I am not focused on the outside of others so much that I suffer in my own walk.
Does not owning a Lamborghini show what is in a person's heart--that it is more important to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a car that looks and sounds cool and shows others how wealthy you are than it is to use those hundreds of thousands of dollars to help those who are suffering and in need?
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TeleBodyofChrist
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

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Adam wrote:
TeleBodyofChrist wrote:It is not realistic for someone who is publicly known to be wealthy to live in a regular neighborhood or dwelling. People who were poor and became rich and tried to stay in the neighborhood they lived in before had to leave as they became targets. Therefore, they moved into an area that was much more affluent and safe for their new circumstances.

I want to be careful in judging people based on material things that do not matter. I do not think if someone owns a luxury car that automatically means they are not a Christian or not a good witness. I do not know what is in their heart. I want to make sure I am not focused on the outside of others so much that I suffer in my own walk.
Does not owning a Lamborghini show what is in a person's heart--that it is more important to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a car that looks and sounds cool and shows others how wealthy you are than it is to use those hundreds of thousands of dollars to help those who are suffering and in need?
No, it does not. There are people who own Lamborghini's and spend millions to help the world. They spend much more than they did on the car.

Also, the OP elaborated on the question as being in relation to the neighbors of the person. The neighbors would also probably have the same type of cars and not think anything of this.

It was like what you are saying earlier, it is what you are used to. I was not born rich and I am not rich now so, I would see it as, "Wow, that car is worth more than everything I have."

However, I can understand that someone who knows nothing but luxury does not see it the same way. It is literally what is common among their social circles.

I therefore, give them the same understanding the locals at your mission give you.
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Adam
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Adam »

TeleBodyofChrist wrote:No, it does not. There are people who own Lamborghini's and spend millions to help the world. They spend much more than they did on the car.
When Jesus watched people putting money into the treasury in the temple, he said that the widow that gave two mites gave more than anybody else because she gave all that she had to live on while the others gave out of their excess. We tend to judge by how much we give, but I think God is more concerned with how much we keep. I don't think giving millions of dollars justifies buying oneself a Lamborghini in the eyes of God.
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Re: Modesty & Simplicity

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Josh, so how does this 'not permitting member' thing work ? Is there some kind of list where things go on and are later removed ? If so, who decides when something was not permitted but now is ? Just curious.
Before making big decisions (like a new job, moving, buying something expensive, etc.) it is expected you would at the very least talk to the ministers about it, and most likely talk to other people about it too. If you do not, you run the risk you will be told to sell/dispose of what you just bought immediately.

There is a general consensus of what is OK and what is not, it is not explictly written down, but is discussed regularly at e.g. Wednesday night Bible study.
Thanks Josh. I wondered just how far some of these restrictions went. I doubt I could ever be a member of a church like this. Imo, the focus is wrong. Our lights are to shine through good deeds and love for one another. I don't believe sanctification and fellowship are things to be legislated. I am glad within Anabaptist beliefs we do have choices of fellowship, focus and practises to pick from.
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