Have Christians unintentionally caused abortions?

[twinpines]

So then if it's what I also expected, that most cases of singlehood pregnancy is with a insider guy

Every example I can think of involves two young people who either left the church, or were on their way out of the church. Not much any of us can do to control them.

why is it that you feel as you said in a post above, that its basically useless to talk to the guys. In the evangelical world as it is in the Bible, the strongest emphasis is with the guy to take responsibility. From your comments it seems to be different in the anabaptist world which would seem to unexpected to me.

It's useless to talk to guys who don't want to listen to me.

For example, a (former) church member had loaded guns in his house that I felt were liable to being used for self defence purposes, a library full of Trump books, and I otherwise suspected he was becoming very attracted to the world. Unfortunately, he had no interest at all in talking to me about any of these things.

Another young man who never became a member but nonetheless went to youth, etc. wanted to get sportbike style of motorcycles. I advised him not to do so, but he went and did so anyway. He certainly isn't interested in hearing what I have to say about girlfriends, relationships, etc.

If a young man is interested in being part of the church and remaining in church, then you'd better believe I certainly take a strong stance against young men fornicating, whether with a girl in church or some girl out in the world. My stance is very clear that repentance from that involves public repentance, formal excommunication, and then a time of proving to be restored to being part of the body of Christ again. (The body of Christ is not composed of murderers, idolators, fornicators, and adulterers.)

In the evangelical world as it is in the Bible, the strongest emphasis is with the guy to take responsibility.

In the real world, single mothers tend to be more interested in hearing my input because they also want a lot of help with babysitting their kids, getting them in a good school, help moving, financial problems, help with legal problems with an ex, and so on.

If you have any bright ideas on how to get a "guy to take responsibility", I'm all ears. I can think of several children where I'd really like to see them take a proper role in their children's life and also reconcile their relationship with their children's mother.

In general, I would wholeheartedly agree. The only exception is that I would question the excommunication if the couple got married. Sort of leads to another question which is how we bring these people back around spiritually? Also curious, did these examples go completely out into the secular world or did they join a more worldly church?

[Josh]

In general, I would wholeheartedly agree. The only exception is that I would question the excommunication if the couple got married. Sort of leads to another question which is how we bring these people back around spiritually? Also curious, did these examples go completely out into the secular world or did they join a more worldly church?

Well, my church does things a little differently, if a couple falls into fornication, they cannot get married (in the church) and would have to demonstrate a life of repentance first and restoration of membership in the church before they could even think about getting married. Of course, they could go get married at the justice of the peace, and work out their reconciliation later.

Sometimes a couple covers it up and hides it and it does not come out until years later when the person finally gives in to conviction and realises they cannot lie and cover up past sin and still make it into heaven, because there won't be any lies nor any liars in heaven.

Most the examples I am thinking of were headed to the world anyway.. sometimes they pass through a more worldly church or two before ending up completely apart from Christian religion at all.

[ABC 123]

In general, I would wholeheartedly agree. The only exception is that I would question the excommunication if the couple got married. Sort of leads to another question which is how we bring these people back around spiritually? Also curious, did these examples go completely out into the secular world or did they join a more worldly church?

Well, my church does things a little differently, if a couple falls into fornication, they cannot get married (in the church) and would have to demonstrate a life of repentance first and restoration of membership in the church before they could even think about getting married. Of course, they could go get married at the justice of the peace, and work out their reconciliation later.

Sometimes a couple covers it up and hides it and it does not come out until years later when the person finally gives in to conviction and realises they cannot lie and cover up past sin and still make it into heaven, because there won't be any lies nor any liars in heaven.

Most the examples I am thinking of were headed to the world anyway.. sometimes they pass through a more worldly church or two before ending up completely apart from Christian religion at all.

Holdemans are really complex people. Wow. Not impressed.

[Soloist]

In general, I would wholeheartedly agree. The only exception is that I would question the excommunication if the couple got married. Sort of leads to another question which is how we bring these people back around spiritually? Also curious, did these examples go completely out into the secular world or did they join a more worldly church?

Well, my church does things a little differently, if a couple falls into fornication, they cannot get married (in the church) and would have to demonstrate a life of repentance first and restoration of membership in the church before they could even think about getting married. Of course, they could go get married at the justice of the peace, and work out their reconciliation later.

Holdemans are really complex people. Wow. Not impressed.

Personally, I wouldn't be that surprised if other conservative Mennonites would be hesitant to marry a young couple who fell into sin. Josh's group doesn't have what anyone would call long engagements...
The one time I encountered something I saw people separating them for a time as purity seemed to be an issue. They did end up married eventually.

[Josh]

In general, I would wholeheartedly agree. The only exception is that I would question the excommunication if the couple got married. Sort of leads to another question which is how we bring these people back around spiritually? Also curious, did these examples go completely out into the secular world or did they join a more worldly church?

Well, my church does things a little differently, if a couple falls into fornication, they cannot get married (in the church) and would have to demonstrate a life of repentance first and restoration of membership in the church before they could even think about getting married. Of course, they could go get married at the justice of the peace, and work out their reconciliation later.

Sometimes a couple covers it up and hides it and it does not come out until years later when the person finally gives in to conviction and realises they cannot lie and cover up past sin and still make it into heaven, because there won't be any lies nor any liars in heaven.

Most the examples I am thinking of were headed to the world anyway.. sometimes they pass through a more worldly church or two before ending up completely apart from Christian religion at all.

Holdemans are really complex people. Wow. Not impressed.

What do you think would be a better standard to uphold?

[MaxPC]

I am really considering jumping into a single mother support ministry. When I think about abortion it is a plethora of feelings from rage, sadness, horrified, guilty, upset, etc. etc. I just can't stand it.

I was doing a lot of thinking on the subject. At my church it is comprised of VERY nuclear families, and also families that adopted children in. MOSTLY Married couples with their own children or adopted children, or widowed with their children. I know the anabaptist cultures really supports these types and this is all encouraged.

A concern I have however is that of single mothers in the world. We'll shake our finger saying "don't abort it's murder" and almost as quickly turn a blind eye to the lady who had the baby out of marriage. Often, we would see her as "tainted" (I hate saying that) in the culture. "I mean she's only 17, has a baby, and she's NEAR my daughter in youth!!!!!!!!!". The unfair side to this is a young man who fornicates only needs to repent. The young lady is "stuck" (I say that figuratively) with the baby. The young lady is frowned on and will always hold the "scarlet letter".

How do we stop this? If not anything the young lady who had a baby is incredibly brave and DID THE RIGHT THING despite the sin. If a young lady comes to YOUR church with a baby, who chose to have the baby rather than abort, how would your church look at her? Would she be judged? Would she be accepted widely? Would she always hold that "taintedness"?

My concern is BY THE JUDGMENTS that she gets, the hue, the taint, the non-acceptance, is one of the primary reasons young ladies turn to abortions. Because "nobody will love me, nobody will accept me (including church), nobody will want me, and I will be poor".

Are we helping the cause of stopping abortion by at least accepting young women who chose not to go through with abortion?

Interesting thread, Chris. After ruminating on it a bit, here are my scattered thoughts.

Abortion as a practice has been used for at least a couple thousand years so it pre-dates Christianity. That does not make it right. It merely points up that abortion has had many excuses in human history and therefore we cannot assume it is the fault of Christian standards.

Rightly applied, Christian standards would seek to help women who are pregnant regardless of their situation. It is an opportunity to live out God’s mercy. For that reason I am inspired by the Sisters of Life who provide women in stressful pregnancies with support via shelter, nutrition, pre-natal care and job-skills training to support themselves.
https://sistersoflife.org/

[aussieandy]

Yeah it's shameful but it was a single event that I presume she will have repented her sins for. Children are innocent and should be cherished. She needs to find a good husband who will accept the new child and return her to righteous wholesome living. If Anabaptists are truly communal, giving the baby up for adoption may not be necessary. The correct answer is to accept her and give her all the support she needs as a church family.

It takes a village to raise a child, make that true and help her.

I don't agree with Shunning. That's where the Amish have gone wrong.

[aussieandy]

I think I'd adopt young women who were shunned this way in Amish communities and help raise the child somehow. It would be the perfect opportunity to grow the Mennonite church, whilst supporting women stuck in these situations. Hopefully, finding them husbands shouldn't be too hard within the Fellowship. The aim should be to fix the problem so that it goes back to wholesome living as soon as possible. The alternative is fostering the baby until she does find a husband but I like the idea of adopting the young woman and accepting her into the family whilst growing our own churches best. Radical solution? Perhaps it is, but I think it would work whilst giving ex-Amish women a second chance at returning to a Godly life.

Out here in Australia, we're just crying out for more Anabaptists to come and church plant and grow the faith. Colonisation without shame might be a solution. I'm just trying to think outside the box and see about achieving several goals at once.

[Josh]

Yeah it's shameful but it was a single event that I presume she will have repented her sins for. Children are innocent and should be cherished. She needs to find a good husband who will accept the new child and return her to righteous wholesome living.

It is often not sensible for a good man to marry a woman who has a proven track record of making bad decisions with her body and her future. Whilst a man can certainly choose to do this, I do not think she needs to find a husband - she needs to learn to live a life of service. If someone wants to marry her, so much the better. There are already more young women in Anabaptists circles than young men due to things like accidents; a single mother simply cannot count on getting married as something to rely on to raise a family.

A man doesn’t marry a woman to “rescue” her. It is about building a life together. A single mother is someone who’s proven she’s not a good future partner, so she has a tough row to hoe to prove the opposite.

I can tell you some amazing testimonies of single mothers who got converted and then transformed themselves into lives of selfless service.

If Anabaptists are truly communal, giving the baby up for adoption may not be necessary. The correct answer is to accept her and give her all the support she needs as a church family.

It takes a village to raise a child, make that true and help her.

Raising kids without a dad is hard and they grow up with more behavioural problems.

I don't agree with Shunning. That's where the Amish have gone wrong.

The Bible calls for shunning of an unrepentant person. “Do not even eat with such a person.”

[aussieandy]

Josh I do not know if this is just you or the Holdman view of things. If it the later then I pity what they have become. The Amish split with the Mennonites over this exact issue of Shunning in the 1600s. That you agree with their sentiment makes me feel you have forgotten the ways of Menno Simons and taken up the cause of Jacob

On many thing we agree I have found. But on this I cannot agree. I hope you understand.