Comprehensive List of Churches/History

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YorkandAdams
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:12 am
Affiliation: IntermediateConMenno

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby YorkandAdams » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:24 pm

Josh wrote: If a church has a large number of formerly Amish members, it will inherit their burden to retire without SS and often will show up on the list. I can think of some MC USA and CMC type churches who are on the list that meet this description.


I was wondering why there were cmc churches (currently) on that list. Its intresting you use the word "burden" but I guess it is the truth.

I know the river brethren keep out of ss. That's why I thought for sure the Old German Baptist Brethren were the same.
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Josh
Posts: 2233
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby Josh » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:23 pm

River Brethren are much closer, historically speaking, to the Mennonite and Amish worlds than the German Baptist Brethren world.

The progressive wings of them (Brethren in Christ) and MC USA cooperate closely in a number of areas.
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francis
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:16 pm
Location: USA

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby francis » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:38 pm

This list might be incomplete, it's only whatever factcheck.org requested under the Freedom of Information Act, YorkandAdams noted this. I spent the rest of the day looking for a more updated list but couldn't find one. If I do, I'll post it on this thread.
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YorkandAdams
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:12 am
Affiliation: IntermediateConMenno

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby YorkandAdams » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:30 pm

francis wrote:This list might be incomplete, it's only whatever factcheck.org requested under the Freedom of Information Act, YorkandAdams noted this. I spent the rest of the day looking for a more updated list but couldn't find one. If I do, I'll post it on this thread.


Thanks for all the info guys, I appreciate it!
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Judas Maccabeus
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Maryland
Affiliation: Con. Menno.

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby Judas Maccabeus » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 pm

YorkandAdams wrote:
Josh wrote: If a church has a large number of formerly Amish members, it will inherit their burden to retire without SS and often will show up on the list. I can think of some MC USA and CMC type churches who are on the list that meet this description.


I was wondering why there were cmc churches (currently) on that list. Its intresting you use the word "burden" but I guess it is the truth.

I know the river brethren keep out of ss. That's why I thought for sure the Old German Baptist Brethren were the same.


I doubt the IRS "prunes" the list. If you pay SS taxes when you begin to work, you are obviously "Opted in."

J.M.
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Josh
Posts: 2233
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby Josh » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:42 pm

The SSA administers the programme, not the IRS. The only interaction the IRS has is regarding exempting you from paying self employment tax if the SSA approves your application (or excusing you from paying payroll tax if you're an employer).

Since my employer isn't exempt it makes no difference to me and the IRS doesn't seem to care.
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ken_sylvania
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:46 pm
Affiliation: CM

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby ken_sylvania » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:19 am

YorkandAdams wrote:
Josh wrote: If a church has a large number of formerly Amish members, it will inherit their burden to retire without SS and often will show up on the list. I can think of some MC USA and CMC type churches who are on the list that meet this description.


I was wondering why there were cmc churches (currently) on that list. Its intresting you use the word "burden" but I guess it is the truth.

I know the river brethren keep out of ss. That's why I thought for sure the Old German Baptist Brethren were the same.

OGBB are not SS exempt. I believe the Eldon Flory group might be.
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francis
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:16 pm
Location: USA

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby francis » Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:35 am

francis wrote:A lot of them were approved before obamacare (the databse says 2005 for many of them.)
Link here: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/SSAGroups.xls


A small update (nothing big, sadly) I was looking through some legal databases and found an article describing a lawsuit in which the Bethel Conservative Mennonite Church (listed on the database linked above) won a suit against a commissioner in 1984 because they weren't paying social security taxes. (linked here: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopicf85.pdf).
This was the best I could find regarding specific congregations when going through the Freedom of Information Act files.

I can confirm here (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/dhimmi ... -exemption) that the above database of exempted churches was compiled in 2009 and since it was only requested because of a one-time myth (namely, that Muslims were exempt from Obamacare,) there likely have not been any requests made since.

So according to earlier comments, most mennonite churches should be indexed by either gameo or pilgrim ministry, is that correct? When I've looked, the place I usually attend (followers of the way) isn't on there, but I'm aware that they're their own group and not much affiliated with others. But the Sugar Hill Mennonite Mission in New York isn't in either database either, I only found it through Google Maps (of all places!)
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Judas Maccabeus
Posts: 453
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Location: Maryland
Affiliation: Con. Menno.

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby Judas Maccabeus » Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:46 am

francis wrote:
francis wrote:A lot of them were approved before obamacare (the databse says 2005 for many of them.)
Link here: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/SSAGroups.xls


A small update (nothing big, sadly) I was looking through some legal databases and found an article describing a lawsuit in which the Bethel Conservative Mennonite Church (listed on the database linked above) won a suit against a commissioner in 1984 because they weren't paying social security taxes. (linked here: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopicf85.pdf).
This was the best I could find regarding specific congregations when going through the Freedom of Information Act files.

I can confirm here (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/dhimmi ... -exemption) that the above database of exempted churches was compiled in 2009 and since it was only requested because of a one-time myth (namely, that Muslims were exempt from Obamacare,) there likely have not been any requests made since.

So according to earlier comments, most mennonite churches should be indexed by either gameo or pilgrim ministry, is that correct? When I've looked, the place I usually attend (followers of the way) isn't on there, but I'm aware that they're their own group and not much affiliated with others. But the Sugar Hill Mennonite Mission in New York isn't in either database either, I only found it through Google Maps (of all places!)


Not really. Pilgrim uses the Christian Light Publishing database, which is quite incomplete, as it does not include the BMA or any BMA-like group, and does not include Brethren related groups. It also does not include "Froleich" related Apostolic groups. The CLP database also does not include Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, (Holderman), so that eliminates sugar hill.

As your group is BMA, it dies not make the list. I have visited your church, and enjoyed it immensely. I attend another urban anabaptist church, and am happy to know that there are others as well, doing the work. Sooner or later, I will be up in NYC, so see you there.

The most complete known database is Cory Anderson's, as it includes all of the above groups. I checked, both the COGICM and your church are there. This database is a bear to get running, and you have to get it directly from Cory. It requires a working copy of Microsoft "Streets and Trips" which is defunct. Let me know if you want more info, or need a specific church/location.

Blessings,

J.M.

Jerry
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francis
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:16 pm
Location: USA

Re: Comprehensive List of Churches/History

Postby francis » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:51 pm

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
francis wrote:
francis wrote:A lot of them were approved before obamacare (the databse says 2005 for many of them.)
Link here: http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/SSAGroups.xls


A small update (nothing big, sadly) I was looking through some legal databases and found an article describing a lawsuit in which the Bethel Conservative Mennonite Church (listed on the database linked above) won a suit against a commissioner in 1984 because they weren't paying social security taxes. (linked here: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopicf85.pdf).
This was the best I could find regarding specific congregations when going through the Freedom of Information Act files.

I can confirm here (http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/dhimmi ... -exemption) that the above database of exempted churches was compiled in 2009 and since it was only requested because of a one-time myth (namely, that Muslims were exempt from Obamacare,) there likely have not been any requests made since.

So according to earlier comments, most mennonite churches should be indexed by either gameo or pilgrim ministry, is that correct? When I've looked, the place I usually attend (followers of the way) isn't on there, but I'm aware that they're their own group and not much affiliated with others. But the Sugar Hill Mennonite Mission in New York isn't in either database either, I only found it through Google Maps (of all places!)


Not really. Pilgrim uses the Christian Light Publishing database, which is quite incomplete, as it does not include the BMA or any BMA-like group, and does not include Brethren related groups. It also does not include "Froleich" related Apostolic groups. The CLP database also does not include Church of God in Christ, Mennonite, (Holderman), so that eliminates sugar hill.

As your group is BMA, it dies not make the list. I have visited your church, and enjoyed it immensely. I attend another urban anabaptist church, and am happy to know that there are others as well, doing the work. Sooner or later, I will be up in NYC, so see you there.

The most complete known database is Cory Anderson's, as it includes all of the above groups. I checked, both the COGICM and your church are there. This database is a bear to get running, and you have to get it directly from Cory. It requires a working copy of Microsoft "Streets and Trips" which is defunct. Let me know if you want more info, or need a specific church/location.

Blessings,

J.M.

Jerry


When I found Sugar Hill, it was the first time I'd found an Anabaptist church through google (successfully.)

I recently got ahold of Cory's directory ("A Portrait of our People") and it seems incomplete as well, no Eastern Pennsylvania or COGIC churches listed there. It's a beautiful book, but not as complete as I expected. Is Cory's database separate from that?
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