Questions for Catholics and Orthodox

[Coifi]

Are there any Orthodox positions that you disagree with?

Are Orthodox adherents expected to agree with and promote the positions of the patriarchate of which they are a part, or are they free to take the position of a different patriarchate if they wish?

Thank you for the question! This is a bit difficult to answer because of categorically different ways of understand what the Church is and how changes are effectuated in the Church.

To start, the Church, as the bride of Christ, has not changed since the bridegroom left the wedding chamber (i.e., the tomb). I'm not saying that the bride has never been unfaithful but that she never disappeared. Even when Israel fell into idolatry, God claimed her as his bride...though she was likened to a whore during those times. I am merely suggesting there is a particular body/assembly/church which has this special union with Christ. To separate from that body and to create a different sect is, by definition, heresy. That is a way in which the Church can be understood.

As for the later, I wouldn't necessarily say that the Church changes. The Church does not change in its dogma. What changes is the manner in which it is expressed. For example, the way in which Christ is presented to the Anglo-Saxons is different than the way in which Christ is presented to the Russians, Indians, or any other culture and any other time. When there are changes in Church practice (e.g., commemoration of saints, the composition of liturgies, etc...), we believe that those take place by the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church - this is what we call Holy Tradition. So, something like the Council of Nicea were things where humans got together and said some stuff, but then later, it becomes clear to the Church that the Holy Spirit was using those humans as instruments for His glory. This happens in an analogous way in our lives, by the way. You might do something one day and then 10 years later, you are utilizing what you learned then to fulfill responsibilities now; you see that it is as if that thing you did before was in preparation for the very thing you are doing now.

So, with these two things in mind (the Church has never disappeared, the Church does not change its dogma), I can address the actual question. I almost certainly disagree with some things, but it's my responsibility to be obedient to the Church and to repent if I ever receive correction. In other words, the institution of Christ, the Church, does not need reformed, humans need reformed. If I disagree with something and am receive correction, I need to repent. This can be done while still remaining a critical thinker. However, as a starting point, I am a sinner and in need of repentance.

As for the other questions, I'm not sure how to answer them. The Church is more like a family than like the Allied Forces. Positions matter less than how you live your life. You're free to do whatever you want, I suppose, but if you decided to spit on your mother (pardon the vulgarity), don't expect the rest of the family to receive you well after that.

I hope that makes sense! I know it was a rather long response and that the majority of it covered ground which you did not ask about. If I have failed to address part of your question, please let me know and I will endeavor to add to my response.

[Valerie]

The accusation from Protestants is of "idol worship" regarding statues and icons.

This question is for Catholics AND Orthodox. Both get the accusation of idol worship.

Please explain why what you do regarding statues and icons is not idolatry please?

These practices don't come from Holy Scripture so how did they begin & why, what purpose and do you understand why Protestants see it as idolatry,?

Thank you in advance.

[MaxPC]

The accusation from Protestants is of "idol worship" regarding statues and icons.

This question is for Catholics AND Orthodox. Both get the accusation of idol worship.

Please explain why what you do regarding statues and icons is not idolatry please?

These practices don't come from Holy Scripture so how did they begin & why, what purpose and do you understand why Protestants see it as idolatry,?

Thank you in advance.

Primarily the statues, murals, etc are teaching aids to depict the stories of the Bible and the saints. Much of church history had a populace that was illiterate. It can even be said for today’s global literacy.

As with anything, it became embedded into those cultural traditions and many view these visual aids as they would a photo of a beloved relative hanging on the wall as a reminder of their favorite people.

[Valerie]

The accusation from Protestants is of "idol worship" regarding statues and icons.

This question is for Catholics AND Orthodox. Both get the accusation of idol worship.

Please explain why what you do regarding statues and icons is not idolatry please?

These practices don't come from Holy Scripture so how did they begin & why, what purpose and do you understand why Protestants see it as idolatry,?

Thank you in advance.

Primarily the statues, murals, etc are teaching aids to depict the stories of the Bible and the saints. Much of church history had a populace that was illiterate. It can even be said for today’s global literacy.

As with anything, it became embedded into those cultural traditions and many view these visual aids as they would a photo of a beloved relative hanging on the wall as a reminder of their favorite people.

Anabaptists have a panoramic mural in Amish country at their historical Behalf. It was painted to "tell the story" from onset of Reformation. Apparently the objection then isn't with images themselves since they had this enormous mural professionally painted at a time when everyone can read. The objection and accusation seems to be the honor given to these images whether statues or icons as if they themselves are idols.

Is there a way to convey the difference to help eliminate this accusation? I come from more Evangelical/Pentecostal/charismatic background and they see it like Anabaptists do.

[MaxPC]

Primarily the statues, murals, etc are teaching aids to depict the stories of the Bible and the saints. Much of church history had a populace that was illiterate. It can even be said for today’s global literacy.

As with anything, it became embedded into those cultural traditions and many view these visual aids as they would a photo of a beloved relative hanging on the wall as a reminder of their favorite people.

Is there a way to convey the difference to help eliminate this accusation? I come from more Evangelical/Pentecostal/charismatic background and they see it like Anabaptists do.

For those unwilling to listen, to stubbornly cling to bigotry, bitterness and anger, no explanation will suffice.
For those who are humble enough to be willing to extend grace and recognise that this is a cultural expression, no explanation is necessary.

For those Catholics who view these images as a part of the family and a part of their history, they will not cease to have them. The converts to the Catholic faith are not as attached to old customs; the converts focus upon the Mass and its lessons.

[Valerie]

Primarily the statues, murals, etc are teaching aids to depict the stories of the Bible and the saints. Much of church history had a populace that was illiterate. It can even be said for today’s global literacy.

As with anything, it became embedded into those cultural traditions and many view these visual aids as they would a photo of a beloved relative hanging on the wall as a reminder of their favorite people.

Is there a way to convey the difference to help eliminate this accusation? I come from more Evangelical/Pentecostal/charismatic background and they see it like Anabaptists do.

For those unwilling to listen, to stubbornly cling to bigotry, bitterness and anger, no explanation will suffice.
For those who are humble enough to be willing to extend grace and recognise that this is a cultural expression, no explanation is necessary.

For those Catholics who view these images as a part of the family and a part of their history, they will not cease to have them. The converts to the Catholic faith are not as attached to old customs; the converts focus upon the Mass and its lessons.

Thank you Max. I can see that. Now-

[Coifi]

The accusation from Protestants is of "idol worship" regarding statues and icons.
Please explain why what you do regarding statues and icons is not idolatry please?
These practices don't come from Holy Scripture so how did they begin & why, what purpose and do you understand why Protestants see it as idolatry,?

TL;DR
Everything we do with icons we do with our fellow Christians who are physically with us. If how we venerate icons is idol worship, the Christian love we show our brothers and sisters in Christ would also have to be a kind of idol worship.
--------------------------------- --------------------------------- ---------------------------------
It's important to know how we use icons in our services as well as how idols functioned in pagan worship. I'll start be attempting to describe these things.

So, how do Orthodox Christians use images when they worship? On its face, they are present on the walls of the church and reveal the fact that, when we gather for worship as the Body of Christ, that the entire Church is present. There are several stands in the church with particular icons (Christ, the Virgin Mary, and the patron of the Church) where the faithful can show respect to the faithful who have fallen asleep in the Lord. The way this is traditionally done is through bowing in front of and kissing the image of the saint and it is commonly referred to as venerating the icon. There are, of course, other ways of showing veneration to a saint such as placing flowers around/in front of the stand. Finally, the priest will cense the icons which adorn the church at various portions of the service. I do not think this is an exhaustive list, but it is certainly the most obvious. For more on the use of icons in Orthodox Christian practice, you can refer to Image of the Invisible an episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast.

What is idol worship? Obviously, a lot of ink has been spilled over this question since the protestant reformation. However, if we go back to the time of Christ, virtually no one was asking this question because practically everyone did it. So when answering the question "What is idol worship" I think it would be best to refer back to that time period when Christians could see smoke rising above pagan altars.

It was largely understood a spiritual technology. For example, there were certain deities which were viewed as having influence over the fertility and virility of the human race (Ba'al being the archetypal example, but Zeus and Marduk are others). The spiritual technology was to invite the god to inhabit an object and the humans would provide hospitality to the god which was then understood to be possessing the idol. If x,y,z things are done for the idol, then you will be more likely to conceive and bear healthy children. Those things have to be done in a very particular way or they would not work. This is why the priest class was the literate class in the ancient world - they had to be able to perform the ritual correctly so they wrote down instructions. For more on how idols work in the ancient world, you can refer to Scarecrows Among Cucumbers another episode of the Lord of Spirits podcast (please note that this one aired before Image of the Invisible so I would listen to this one first).

How icons function in the church is as much akin to idol worship as idol worship is to the relationship you have with your spouse. Or any other human for that matter (if you are a practicing Christian). That is, idol worship is a means to manipulate and dominate creation and other humans; icon veneration is a means to show love and respect and deference to others - departed saint or fellow parishioner alike.

The chief difference between the veneration we show to a saint in their icon and our Christian brothers and sisters with whom we talk to after church is that the latter are physically present with us and the former are not. As evidence of this being chief difference, all the things which I have described Orthodox Christians doing towards icons we do towards other Christians. We kiss each other, we prostrate before each other, we adorn our departed love ones with flowers at their funeral service, and the priest censes the entire congregation during the services of the church. The reason we do all these things - whether directed towards our fellow parishioners or towards the departed saints - is ultimately because of the Incarnation of Christ and his commands to love God and to love one another. As to the latter, to love one another is to love God because we are icons of Christ and by loving and venerating each other, we are, therefore, loving Christ. As for the former, because Christ has condescended to our humanity, he raises up our embodied humanity to dwell with God and as such, he has made holy all of creation and has called upon all to do the same. This is a reason (if not the primary reason) for why the practice is a thing. The conclusion of the Martyrdom of Polycarp is a great example of the origins of such practices.

As for why Protestants view these things as idol worship, I understand it to be based primarily on an interpretation of the Second Commandment from the book of Exodus. I cannot think of any other reason why. Is there another reason why?

I must confess that my personal knowledge of pagan practices of idol worship are quite limited (thank God!). I could be off base. My primary point in discussing their practices even in such a limited capacity is to draw attention to what the apostles refer to as idol worship and what has been referred to as idol worship since the reformation. The former should be the reference point since it is what was discussed in the Scriptures.

I hope my response has been clear. If I missed an important aspect of your question, please let me know and I will endeavor to address it! I know this is a major concern for practically all Protestants and it can be a cause for a lot of tension between us. Rightfully so! If we were worshiping demons via idol worship, that would be terribly sinful. Hopefully, I have given an acceptable answer for why that is not the case.

[Soloist]

Coifi,

Can you expand on the church-heaven merger concept and perhaps provide the references in Scripture or early church to support the idea?

[Bootstrap]

TL;DR
Everything we do with icons we do with our fellow Christians who are physically with us. If how we venerate icons is idol worship, the Christian love we show our brothers and sisters in Christ would also have to be a kind of idol worship.

Hi Coifi - first off, I appreciate your posts, with direct and concrete answers to questions, offered in a way that is not defensive or divisive.

I do attend Orthodox services from time to time, and spent a year deciding whether to join the Orthodox church when I was in college (a LONG time ago). I was part of Evangelical Orthodox conferences for a few years. I ate breakfast with a Coptic Christian yesterday at a workshop I was at this whole week. I have relationships with Orthodox people who I consider brethren. So I hope my questions can be seen in that light.

Here's my question, though: to me, many of the ways Orthodox venerate would be considered idolatry if they were done with living human beings. I hope nobody builds a statue of me, trimmed with gold, and bows down to it. I don't want anyone to pray to me with words that seem a lot like the words people pray to God.

Even in the liturgy, there are some prayers where Mary is invoked in ways I think you would be uncomfortable with for a living human being:

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

We give thanks to You, Master Who loves mankind, benefactor of our souls, that even on this very day You have made us worthy of Your heavenly and immortal Mysteries. Make straight our path, fortify us in Your fear, guard our life, make secure our steps, through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and of all Your saints.

Would you be comfortable if this said:

We give thanks to You, Master Who loves mankind, benefactor of our souls, that even on this very day You have made us worthy of Your heavenly and immortal Mysteries. Make straight our path, fortify us in Your fear, guard our life, make secure our steps, through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Coifi and Bootstrap and of all Your saints.

I wonder if you could address these differences - do they affect the explanation you gave? Do you agree that it would be inappropriate to do these things with living people? Do you think it is nevertheless OK with Mary or other saints who have died? If so, how do you explain that? Do you think Mary is different from other saints who have died in Orthodox theology?

[Coifi]

Before I start, please forgive me for my delay in responding to you both. Also, I thought I would link this video here. It is part of a panel discussion which I helped coordinate in which the Orthodox representative answered the question, "What is an icon." His response is apropos.

Can you expand on the church-heaven merger concept and perhaps provide the references in Scripture or early church to support the idea?

Soloist, this is what I was referring to when I brought up the Incarnation. In some sense, therefore, my Scripture reference is the entire Gospel. As is often quoted from St. Athanasius, "God became man so that men might become gods." Orthodox Christians call this theosis, while others call it divinization or entire sanctification. You can read more about theosis on the Antiochian Archdiocese website. This is integral to the understanding of the church-heaven merger concept or, put similarly creation-heaven merger concept. When God becomes man, His deity raises up humanity to himself. He demonstrates this throughout his life by healing the sick and casting out demons - instead of Him become sick when He touches sick people, they become clean and the sickness leaves. When He encounters demons, He isn't harmed, but instead, they flee. When God unites Himself to mankind in the Incarnation, what it means to be truly human is raised to up to God. If that language is uncomfortable, it is the same as Christ saying "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48) or as Paul says "[He] will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body" (Phil. 3:21) or "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal. 2:20). Therefore, if we participate in the things which Christ has done, we become the hands and feet of Christ...the body of Christ...on this earth. Aside from the chief things (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned), the other way in which we participate in the things of Christ is through ritual participation at church through the mysteries He instituted. In ritual worship, it is understood that those who are participating are not just remembering it, but are uniting themselves to the very thing which is being re-enacted. For a fuller, more eloquent and research discussion regarding ritual worship, I would refer you, once again, to the Lord of Spirits podcast and their episode Eating with the Gods. I hope this answers your question! If I've failed to address a portion of your thought, please let me know and I will endeavor to elaborate.

Even in the liturgy, there are some prayers where Mary is invoked in ways I think you would be uncomfortable with for a living human being:
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

We give thanks to You, Master Who loves mankind, benefactor of our souls, that even on this very day You have made us worthy of Your heavenly and immortal Mysteries. Make straight our path, fortify us in Your fear, guard our life, make secure our steps, through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and of all Your saints.

Would you be comfortable if this said:

We give thanks to You, Master Who loves mankind, benefactor of our souls, that even on this very day You have made us worthy of Your heavenly and immortal Mysteries. Make straight our path, fortify us in Your fear, guard our life, make secure our steps, through the prayers and supplications of the glorious Coifi and Bootstrap and of all Your saints.

I wonder if you could address these differences - do they affect the explanation you gave? Do you agree that it would be inappropriate to do these things with living people? Do you think it is nevertheless OK with Mary or other saints who have died? If so, how do you explain that? Do you think Mary is different from other saints who have died in Orthodox theology?

Bootstrap, I appreciate you for providing some personal context! That really helps in these sensitive conversations and gives me confidence that you ask your question in good faith. As I had mentioned earlier, this is an important topic such that, if the incorporation of icons in worship is wrong, then that would be quite serious for Orthodox Christians and others like us.

I would definitely not be comfortable if my name was included in that prayer because a) I am still fearfully working out my salvation knowing that there is a possibility of being among the goats whom the Father has never known and b) I have barely begun that process. While this is going away from the question regarding icons, this is nevertheless related as you seem to be asking about the Holy Ones of God - the Saints. The Orthodox representative from that panel I mentioned answers the question, "What is a saint," and I think his response has bearing here. His response to the question can be found here. In that, he essentially says that his 12 year old nephew plays basketball and can therefore be called a basketball player. Then there is Lebron James; he is a Basketball player. The two are both basketball players but one we hold up as the particular example of what it means to be a basketball player. It is not different for the saints. All practicing Christians are saints; the Theotokos is a SAINT. She bore God in her body. You can't beat that in terms of what it means to be holy.

So, I would kind of agree that it would be inappropriate to include the name of a living person explicitly in that prayer, but note that all the saints are included in that very prayer. That includes the living saints. The reason for it being inappropriate to explicitly include the name of a living person is the same reason for why I would not be comfortable if my name was substituted in that prayer. As for using the names of those who have died, those two reasons no longer apply AND the lives of the big-S-Saints have been revealed as particular exemplars for veneration. There is definitely more I could say on this topic, but I think I shall retire it here as it is getting late for me. I apologize if I have not as thoroughly treated your question as I have others. If you have more questions, please follow up and I will endeavor to answer it! After visiting the other questions I have missed...

In the meantime, you can listen to this discussion on the Lord of Spirits podcast in which the hosts tackle the question, "What does it mean to be equal with the Angels?" It would be good fodder for more questions.