Questions for Catholics and Orthodox

[mike]

Questions for Catholic & Orthodox adherents or advocates:

Would you see it as ideal for your church to be the state-sanctioned church of any given country? Short answer, no.

If in theory that could once again happen, how would your church would function differently today from times past when that was the case?

The RCC has "been there, done that" and walked away from it in the modern era; for that reason I cannot envision it seeking to be a "state sanctioned church" in any form today, tomorrow or the next century. The history lessons of the past problems have their effect in this regard. Indeed, the RCC is battling against China's insistence upon its own state sanctioned version of the Catholic Church.

There is the independent Vatican city-state to house the administrative and scholarly resources of the RCC. It has less than 500 people and occupies approximately 100 acres. It does have its own diplomatic corps and technically is not a part of any other nation. That is about as close to an official state Catholic church that the modern world will see.

Thanks.

[RZehr]

Questions for Catholic & Orthodox adherents or advocates:

Would you see it as ideal for your church to be the state-sanctioned church of any given country? Short answer, no.

If in theory that could once again happen, how would your church would function differently today from times past when that was the case?

The RCC has "been there, done that" and walked away from it in the modern era; for that reason I cannot envision it seeking to be a "state sanctioned church" in any form today, tomorrow or the next century. The history lessons of the past problems have their effect in this regard. Indeed, the RCC is battling against China's insistence upon its own state sanctioned version of the Catholic Church.

There is the independent Vatican city-state to house the administrative and scholarly resources of the RCC. With 1.2 billion members that is a lot of paperwork . It has less than 500 people and occupies approximately 100 acres. It does have its own diplomatic corps and technically is not a part of any other nation. That is about as close to an official state Catholic church that the modern world will see.

Why doesn’t the RCC simply renounce their Vatican City sovereignty and become part of Italy?

[MaxPC]

Questions for Catholic & Orthodox adherents or advocates:

Would you see it as ideal for your church to be the state-sanctioned church of any given country? Short answer, no.

If in theory that could once again happen, how would your church would function differently today from times past when that was the case?

The RCC has "been there, done that" and walked away from it in the modern era; for that reason I cannot envision it seeking to be a "state sanctioned church" in any form today, tomorrow or the next century. The history lessons of the past problems have their effect in this regard. Indeed, the RCC is battling against China's insistence upon its own state sanctioned version of the Catholic Church.

There is the independent Vatican city-state to house the administrative and scholarly resources of the RCC. With 1.2 billion members that is a lot of paperwork . It has less than 500 people and occupies approximately 100 acres. It does have its own diplomatic corps and technically is not a part of any other nation. That is about as close to an official state Catholic church that the modern world will see.

Why doesn’t the RCC simply renounce their Vatican City sovereignty and become part of Italy?

Essentially the Vatican (or Catholic HQ ) needs to be politically neutral. It has ~1.2 billion members from every nation and state on its rolls. We are quite ethnically diverse.

Historically the Vatican was used as the political rope in the tug-of-war between nations and the Italian city-states thus becoming an excuse for wars and state power. Italy was a collection of city-states at one point in history and they always had some kind of conflict between them.

At one point the Pope moved the Vatican population to Avignon, France but that did not suit either. Same issue of political favoritisms.

[Ernie]

This could be an interesting discussion but Ernie specifically requested only Catholics and Orthodox answer questions.

If you are asked a question, feel free to answer it. I just didn't want pseudo Catholics, pseudo Orthodox, or people who know something about everything, answering questions that were asked to Catholics and Orthodox.

[barnhart]

Barnhart, in order to avoid confusion on definitions, it would help me to understand and answer your query if I have more information.
How does your fellowship understand these verses?
Does your fellowship have bishops? Elders? Deacons?
How do those verses impact those positions in your fellowship?

This could be an interesting discussion but Ernie specifically requested only Catholics and Orthodox answer questions.

I am sure Ernie would not mind as it would help me to answer your questions. I covered Matthew 23 for you. The other two I need a bit of the perspective from which you understand them.

I have been a member of two churches both part of larger groups of churches. In all cases the leadership was local, locally selected and served without salary.

I don't recall what you covered from Matthew 23 so perhaps you could summarize again.

Here is the original question:

How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

[MaxPC]

I have been a member of two churches both part of larger groups of churches. In all cases the leadership was local, locally selected and served without salary.

I don't recall what you covered from Matthew 23 so perhaps you could summarize again.

Here is the original question:

How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Thank you, I shall give it some thought tonight to try and hopefully provide an answer that helps understanding.
Here is my answer from earlier in the thread for Matthew 23. viewtopic.php?p=223737#p223737

[MaxPC]

How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?

Thank you, I shall give it some thought tonight to try and hopefully provide an answer that helps understanding.
Here is my answer from earlier in the thread for Matthew 23. viewtopic.php?p=223737#p223737

Barnhart, I decided to simply try to write a summary and then paste it here so that your query can be answered in one place. I left the link so that you can refer back to part one, the answer to the Matthew 23 query.

The Roman Catholic Church Administration Model Today

As is commonly known, the Roman Catholic Church calls the Apostle Peter our first Pope who was vested with authority by Jesus in Matthew 16:
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.

Christianity as a faith grew rapidly from its beginnings and learned quickly it had to deal with the practical administration of those increasing numbers. As those numbers increased, administrative models had to be configured to better maintain the proper delivery of the Faith’s teachings without error to and to also meet the needs of the new Christians. The Roman Catholic Church traces its first administrative models to Acts 6:
1 Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists murmured against the Hebrews because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 
2 And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. 
3 Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. 
4 But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 
5 And what they said pleased the whole multitude, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Proch′orus, and Nica′nor, and Timon, and Par′menas, and Nicola′us, a proselyte of Antioch. 
6 These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands upon them.
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
The use of multiple dioceses led by Bishops within each territory, country or continent was the answer to this logistical challenge. As the membership grew, more dioceses were created and so it continues today.

In dealing with the size and growth rate of the Early Church, the leadership copied the hierarchical management structures found in other faiths and in secular governments. Through the centuries, as the world’s governmental structures gradually changed from monarchies to democratic republics and parliaments, they also influenced the restructuring of RCC administrative models.

Since Vatican II in the early 1960s there has been a return to the collegial model for the Bishops and Cardinals which has counter-balanced the centuries of “top down” management practices. To use a secular analogy, the Pope acts as a “Servant CEO” (my term for it) while depending upon the input and expertise of the College of Cardinals and the Bishops - the Pope cannot do it all. In recent years there have been laity who have expertise in various fields such as biological ethics, etc. who have joined the Pope’s circle of advisors.

The Pope, the Bishops and the Cardinals are charged with protecting the Deposit of the Faith from distortion and error, (those teachings that are non-negotiable) and serving the Faithful within the nations around the world. God holds them accountable for these responsibilities (Matthew 16:17-20).

In turn the Bishops within their individual dioceses also follow a similar management model that depends upon the input of parish priests and laity. There will also be specialists trained in Canon Law, etc within each diocese. They too are held accountable by God for their responsibilities. Some dioceses are urban and suburban; some are rural with ranches and farms. In Wyoming, there was a Catholic Bishop who also worked on ranches as a cowboy. He did not have as many Catholics and duties as the more populated dioceses so he supplemented the diocesan finances with money he earned while working cattle.

The reason the RCC has turned to this type of management is due to the sheer size of the Roman Catholic Church today which is comprised of 1.2 Billion members. Just the record keeping alone would require a systematic management approach. To give an idea of the parish sizes in the USA, there are individual rural parishes with as few as five families; and rapid growth areas that have parishes with 14,000 families. New mission parishes continue to emerge as well.

Is it perfect? No, but then personally, I consider any institution or organisation vulnerable to human error and imperfections which is why I consider the guidance of the Holy Spirit as indispensable.

Hopefully that answers your queries, Barnhart. My apologies for the length of these answers; I did my best to try to summarise two millennia of RCC history. So much of that history involves personality dynamics and reactions to those dynamics which is just an academic way of saying there are many perspectives to the history. I can only try to approach it from the history books and knowledge of human behaviors. I am old but contrary to rumors and jokes I am not old enough to be a first hand witness.

[Coifi]

How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Thanks for the question! Ernie let me know that about this thread and invited me to participate. I will endeavor to answer to the best of my ability, but I am not a teacher. I'm sharing my thoughts on the question from the perspective of a lay-person. For an answer that would better represent that of the Orthodox Church, ask a priest or someone who has received a bishop's blessing to teach.

There is one major assumption I will need to make to answer the question and that is that hierarchies are good. There are numerous examples of good hierarchies in the Scriptures. Some examples of these are that of Christ and the Church, that of a man and woman in a marital union, that of mankind and of creation, that of the tribes of Israel, that of the Levitical priesthood, the Davidic kingship, and so on. All of these were, in some way, ordained by God. Therefore, I would go so far as to say that hierarchies are not just good, but necessary. For more on what I mean when I talk about hierarchies, I would refer to this video by Jonathan Pageau.

In light of this, I would have to presume that a 'hierarchy of power' is not just a hierarchy per se, but a hierarchy that functions in a certain way. So, with respect to the verses, Christ and the apostle Peter are not warning us against hierarchies as such. Rather, I would understand these verses to be injunctions against ways in which hierarchies could function. In Matthew 20:25-29, Christ is not saying you shouldn't have a hierarchy, but the disciples shouldn't use the Gentiles as models for their hierarchies. In fact, Christ then shares how the hierarchy should function - "not to be served but to serve." Essentially, you should act like Christ regardless of who you are (shocker, I know). I would suggest Christ is also saying a similar thing in chapter 23. It seems to me that Christ even suggests that we should pay attention to those above us in a hierarchy even if they are not functioning as they should. I would interpret the passage from the First Epistle of Saint Peter to have another similar reading.

A member of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, then, should not lord it over those who are under their authority; they should not preach and not practice; they shouldn't demand service because of their title. Put differently, they should not be exploitative. Instead, they are called to serve as Christ did - to die for those who are beneath them in the hierarchy. This is, after all, what Christ did for us and we are called to be imitators of Christ. As put by the hosts of a podcast I listen to, "[Having a hierarchy] isn’t saying you need an intermediary between you and God. This isn’t saying you need another mediator other than Christ between you and God, because ideally, if he’s doing it right, he virtually ceases to exist." (Lord of Spirits: World of Priestcraft). I hope that makes sense! If I have misinterpreted your question in any way, please let me know and I will endeavor to address the question anew.

TL;DR
Hierarchies are good; exploitative hierarchies (hierarchies of power?) are bad. All members of a hierarchy are called to imitate Christ. In as much as they do not, it is dysfunctional and in need of repentance.

[Valerie]

How do you understand the New Testament warnings against creating hierarchies of power?
Matt 20:25-29
Matt 23:8-10
1Pet 5:3

Thanks for the question! Ernie let me know that about this thread and invited me to participate. I will endeavor to answer to the best of my ability, but I am not a teacher. I'm sharing my thoughts on the question from the perspective of a lay-person. For an answer that would better represent that of the Orthodox Church, ask a priest or someone who has received a bishop's blessing to teach.

There is one major assumption I will need to make to answer the question and that is that hierarchies are good. There are numerous examples of good hierarchies in the Scriptures. Some examples of these are that of Christ and the Church, that of a man and woman in a marital union, that of mankind and of creation, that of the tribes of Israel, that of the Levitical priesthood, the Davidic kingship, and so on. All of these were, in some way, ordained by God. Therefore, I would go so far as to say that hierarchies are not just good, but necessary. For more on what I mean when I talk about hierarchies, I would refer to this video by Jonathan Pageau.

In light of this, I would have to presume that a 'hierarchy of power' is not just a hierarchy per se, but a hierarchy that functions in a certain way. So, with respect to the verses, Christ and the apostle Peter are not warning us against hierarchies as such. Rather, I would understand these verses to be injunctions against ways in which hierarchies could function. In Matthew 20:25-29, Christ is not saying you shouldn't have a hierarchy, but the disciples shouldn't use the Gentiles as models for their hierarchies. In fact, Christ then shares how the hierarchy should function - "not to be served but to serve." Essentially, you should act like Christ regardless of who you are (shocker, I know). I would suggest Christ is also saying a similar thing in chapter 23. It seems to me that Christ even suggests that we should pay attention to those above us in a hierarchy even if they are not functioning as they should. I would interpret the passage from the First Epistle of Saint Peter to have another similar reading.

A member of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, then, should not lord it over those who are under their authority; they should not preach and not practice; they shouldn't demand service because of their title. Put differently, they should not be exploitative. Instead, they are called to serve as Christ did - to die for those who are beneath them in the hierarchy. This is, after all, what Christ did for us and we are called to be imitators of Christ. As put by the hosts of a podcast I listen to, "[Having a hierarchy] isn’t saying you need an intermediary between you and God. This isn’t saying you need another mediator other than Christ between you and God, because ideally, if he’s doing it right, he virtually ceases to exist." (Lord of Spirits: World of Priestcraft). I hope that makes sense! If I have misinterpreted your question in any way, please let me know and I will endeavor to address the question anew.

TL;DR
Hierarchies are good; exploitative hierarchies (hierarchies of power?) are bad. All members of a hierarchy are called to imitate Christ. In as much as they do not, it is dysfunctional and in need of repentance.

Thank you, I understand the fear of hierarchy in some but it never made sense to me to ignore it's importance as laid out in Scripture and you explained it so well, appreciate your input.

[Ernie]

This is a question for both Catholics and Orthodox.

Do you feel comfortable referring to a priest as "Father __________"?
or the pope as "Most Holy Father"

If yes, how do you square that with...

“Call no man your Father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven” (Matt. 23:9).

and what do you think Jesus intended when he gave this instruction?