Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:44 am
Neto wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:41 pm
re:
5. separation of church and state (two-kingdoms)
At least for the Dutch 'baptism-minded", I don't think that this is exactly correct. I suspect that this wording came much later, actually as a modification of the anabaptist belief, by 'Evangelical fore-runners", probably here in North America. (Maybe the feeling that the original idea was co-opted by the founders of the American Revolution for political ends is what causes me to recoil from using it myself.)
I would agree with a wording like "separation of the believer from state", or perhaps "Fidelity to a single kingdom, the Kingdom of God". (Modern wording, but I think that it accurately captures the early belief.)
I understand what is meant by the term "two kingdoms", but I don't think that is the perspective of at least the early Mennists. If the Swiss Brethren used that terminology, I would like to see a reference. Obviously, however, I also realize that none of these men spoke or wrote in English, so there is the matter of translation to consider as well.
Perhaps a question would be a better form of "push-back", in a request to define the terms, especially 'state'. Maybe better yet (but much more so 'modern-speak') would be "separation of the Christian from the world system, as manifested in the governance model."
Thank you for the efforts you have made to clearly express these beliefs in such a brief form.
Thanks Neto. What about something like this?
The kingdoms of this world do not follow the principles of Christ's kingdom. Therefore, Christians must not become entangled with earthly kingdoms, but rather give their allegiance only to the Kingdom of God. (Christian Ambassadorship)
I think that it goes beyond this, and well beyond what I suggested above, as my last thought this morning.
Here's my reason: I think I've mentioned this before, but as a "Russian Mennonite" I grew up with the idea that we (my people) lost the "Mennonite Christian Paradise" when we lost the colony life. In the recent years I've seen more clearly, because part of that colony life included the problem that "the church became what we were trying to escape", the Mennonite church in Russia BECAME a mini-state that reported to the secular government. But it also became corrupt, even to the extent that it was reprimanded by the Czarist government. How could this be? The land-owners, the rich, they ruled. They took advantage of their Christian brothers, keeping them down through the power of this world, wielded in the "Christian Colony".
Many attempts have been made to "escape the world" through outward means - rules, regulations, physical separation from "the outside world". But the problem is that "the world" is inside every one of us. When we move away from "the world" we take it with us. We cannot get away from it, because we ARE the world. Only the power of Christ can take it out of us. It may be a slow work, but the Holy Spirit can do it. We cannot. But He cannot either, unless we cooperate. (Not because His power is insufficient, but because God want willing children, sons and daughters who freely choose to love and obey Him.) I believe I know you well enough to know that you also do not depend on outward guidelines to do this work of God. And Yes, those are ways in which we can cooperate with God - I am not opposed to guidelines formed to express our resolve to love and obey Him.
Your response this morning has helped me see something I wasn't even looking at. Even if the "kingdom of this world" followed God's principles, I don't think we should wield that power. In our case, the "Kingdom of this World" is a democracy. Maybe that is even more insidious than a kingdom with a king, because if we take part in it, we collectively become the king of this world, exercising worldly power. If the "Evangelicals", the "Moral Majority", would "win the culture war", would we join them in ruling the righteous government they envision? I fear such a hope is a grand deception.
I know that the prophecy of the book of The Revelation says that we will rule with Him. So I'm still dealing with that thought. All I have so far is that this requires the promised transformation that will come when we meet Him in the air, and, seeing Him as He is, become like Him. This is the hope we have in Christ.
(Maybe my response is too extreme to the minds of others, possibly because I once loved this world's kingdom, and its flag, so much. But I am also conscious of the world that I too often still find within myself. I am not yet finished leaving off from the 'kingdom of the world'. So I look forward to that Day of the LORD, when He catches us up, to Himself.)