1525-2025: 500 years of the Anabaptist movement

[Sudsy]

Of note is that the 7 points above are virtually nonexistent outside of plain Anabaptism, and when you do find them, they often come with a group that (a) lacks multigenerational ethos and (b) has additional, questionable doctrines.

I would argue the 16th century Anabaptists weren’t aware of something that 21st century Anabaptists are. Namely:

8. God’s design for man is to live in ethno-religious communities that fully integrate peoplehood, family, and lifestyle with Anabaptist doctrines and values, and in so doing create a multigenerational church. Without this, a church is merely an assembly of people with similar intellectual ideas but otherwise disintegrates into the next generation.

I have trouble with this one if I'm understanding it correctly. I don't believe God wants His people to live in 'ethno-religious communities' but rather to live amongst those Jesus came to save and be lights in this world of darkness. There is a gathering of believers to fellowship and learn but I believe salvation is spread through, as Jesus demonstrated, mingling with the lost. When any church only or primarily grows through having babies and raising them to believe the same, to me, that is not what it means to go into all the world and preach the Gospel.

I don't see plain Anabaptists growing the Church of Christ much outside of their own families. The group of Anabaptists I was part of (MB) had this evangelical view of reaching beyond their ethnic boundaries but they are likely considered today far from plain Anabaptists and quite worldly. I am not saying these approaches to reach the lost through modern means is all perfect and doesn't need constant considering and adjusting where needed but the attempt to get beyond ethnic barriers, imo, is the way of the Master. Jesus demonstrated mingling with sinners and certainly didn't isolate Himself from those He came to save.

But perhaps I mis-understood what you are saying.

I think Josh was pointing to a deeper fellowship in brotherhood than you find in churches you describe who loose their way after a generation or two.

I think “having things common” was key in the original Anabaptist’s and brotherhood. They also had something most Mennonites have never experienced in literally forsaking all to follow Christ and be the church, which I believe helped them relate more helpfully and readily to each others needs physically and spiritually. Brotherhood and aid could be more expanded on in your list Ernie. I think it is inferred but not quite clear enough to see the deep sense of brotherhood and fellowship they experienced.

I agree with having a 'deep sense of brotherhood and fellowship' just not in a way that isolates Christians from reaching the lost. I believe one of the biggest challenges for those brotherhoods that are primarily people from German and Russian roots is to reach those who are of different background.

Some Anabaptists have dropped the 'Mennonite' identification in their church titles as a step toward breaking down the barrier of what people associate in this title. This has occurred to some degree with other faith groups also that change their name from a doctrine label (i.e. Pentecostal, Baptist, Anabaptist, Brethren). The early churches were known only by their geographical location. Our local Mennonite Brethren church and the Pentecostal church have dropped the Mennonite and Pentecostal identifiers and have changed it to geographical location names.

Just saying when church is all about 'us' and little about 'them' (not yet believers), something is messed up. Jesus did not promote this kind of focus.

[Sudsy]

God’s design for man is to live in ethnic nations of different tribes and tongues. (If you disagree with that, go consider the Tower of Babel.) This includes organisations of congregations.

A few people can be “aliens and strangers” and choose to fit in, but for a church to be able to function, people there need to be able to comfortably share a culture. Most people are uncomfortable in cross cultural settings.

I believe who makes it 'comfortable' to having a family environment in Christianity is the Holy Spirit. He breaks down all ethnic barriers and gives a oneness that rises above any ethnic backgrounds. I remember my uncle prior to salvation having extreme dislike for all black skinned people. He wanted nothing to do with them. Then he got saved. My dad told us of watching him putting his arm around a struggling lost black skinned man at a mission in Detroit sharing with him the story of Jesus. That is what the Holy Spirit can do. Gal. 3:28 reads - “There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.”

[NedFlanders]

Sudsy, Josh and I come far from any Mennonite background and can attest to being atheists in the past. And I believe we have both encouraged many people to consider and attend a Conservative Mennonite church. You might want to consider that context in understanding what we are posting…. I don’t mean to speak for Josh but it isn’t about “Mennonite” - it is about following Christ and the result will be beliefs and actions very much like that of Mennonites as well as finding fellowship with others that are following Christ - a group that drifts into the world after a generation is not actually following Christ. Christ said, “Wisdom is justified of her children.”

[Judas Maccabeus]

By 1550, the majority of Anabaptists believed and practiced...
1. love towards enemies (non-resistance)
2. separation unto God (non-conformity)
3. sharing extra resources with the poor as well as for the promotion of the Gospel (non-accumulation)
4. a voluntary but disciplined association of believers (pure church)
5. separation of church and state (two-kingdoms)
6. taking the Gospel to those who have not yet heard (evangelism/missions)
7. baptism upon confession of faith and walking in newness of life (believer's baptism)

Few others at that time period adhered to all seven of these points.

I think all seven of these are alive and well in various pockets of Anabaptist descendants today. But unfortunately, many Anabaptist churches today allow members in the church who do not embrace all these tenets. I think this is very sad. I'd like to see more renewal movements taking place among Anabaptists.

In reality. 1 and 2 (and to a lesser extent 4 and 5) are our "distinctives." You will find the others in various other movements , but by and large if you start expressing a belief in 1 & 2 (particularly 1) in most of the so called "Bible Believing" church, you will find yourself an outcast, and very quickly. Maybe not officially, but certainly socially.

[Judas Maccabeus]

God’s design for man is to live in ethnic nations of different tribes and tongues. (If you disagree with that, go consider the Tower of Babel.) This includes organisations of congregations.

A few people can be “aliens and strangers” and choose to fit in, but for a church to be able to function, people there need to be able to comfortably share a culture. Most people are uncomfortable in cross cultural settings.

This is true. One of the most difficult things you can do is to try to turn a church that has had a single culture, into a multicultural one. There are shared assumptions in any culture that while normally not written down are just as important as if they were. Maybe more.

This is why being a cross cultural missionary is so difficult. You do not always understand the nuances of your adopted culture. Normally it will not be long until you realize you are in the middle of a minefield, and you just stepped on a mine. You have to get out of the minefield, but how can you do that without stepping on more mines.

I have stepped on more than a few in my time. Both here and overseas.

[Sudsy]

God’s design for man is to live in ethnic nations of different tribes and tongues. (If you disagree with that, go consider the Tower of Babel.) This includes organisations of congregations.

A few people can be “aliens and strangers” and choose to fit in, but for a church to be able to function, people there need to be able to comfortably share a culture. Most people are uncomfortable in cross cultural settings.

This is true. One of the most difficult things you can do is to try to turn a church that has had a single culture, into a multicultural one. There are shared assumptions in any culture that while normally not written down are just as important as if they were. Maybe more.

This is why being a cross cultural missionary is so difficult. You do not always understand the nuances of your adopted culture. Normally it will not be long until you realize you are in the middle of a minefield, and you just stepped on a mine. You have to get out of the minefield, but how can you do that without stepping on more mines.

I have stepped on more than a few in my time. Both here and overseas.

To my underline of your post - Difficult ? Yes, perhaps for some. Impossible ? No. I have been involved in an Anabaptist (Mennonite) church that, years ago were 95%+ from one single culture. Today they are about 50% of the original culture and getting less as the years go by. One of their approaches to this change is to hire lead pastors that are not from the original church culture nor from Anabaptist backgrounds but had no issue with Anabaptist beliefs. One of the few original culture things they hold unto is 'Mennonite Sausage' and a special time of year they take orders for anyone who wants a supply. But beside that special efforts are made to treat everyone the same, as Canadians and Christians. The term 'Anabaptist' is used regarding faith group instead of 'Mennonite'.

I'm not suggesting this is easily done but those who believe it is the scriptural way to grow Christ's Church and are willing to let go of some of their traditions or at least, not impose them on others, it opens a door to evangelism and reaching all who Christ came to save. Some may see this as a compromise they are unwilling to take and remain 95%+ from one single culture.

[NedFlanders]

We know what Christ said about hirelings…. Won’t find anything in regard to the historic or Anabaptist church participating in paid pastors. So you lost us right there, Sudsy.

[ken_sylvania]

God’s design for man is to live in ethnic nations of different tribes and tongues. (If you disagree with that, go consider the Tower of Babel.) This includes organisations of congregations.

A few people can be “aliens and strangers” and choose to fit in, but for a church to be able to function, people there need to be able to comfortably share a culture. Most people are uncomfortable in cross cultural settings.

This is true. One of the most difficult things you can do is to try to turn a church that has had a single culture, into a multicultural one. There are shared assumptions in any culture that while normally not written down are just as important as if they were. Maybe more.

This is why being a cross cultural missionary is so difficult. You do not always understand the nuances of your adopted culture. Normally it will not be long until you realize you are in the middle of a minefield, and you just stepped on a mine. You have to get out of the minefield, but how can you do that without stepping on more mines.

I have stepped on more than a few in my time. Both here and overseas.

To my underline of your post - Difficult ? Yes, perhaps for some. Impossible ? No. I have been involved in an Anabaptist (Mennonite) church that, years ago were 95%+ from one single culture. Today they are about 50% of the original culture and getting less as the years go by. One of their approaches to this change is to hire lead pastors that are not from the original church culture nor from Anabaptist backgrounds but had no issue with Anabaptist beliefs. One of the few original culture things they hold unto is 'Mennonite Sausage' and a special time of year they take orders for anyone who wants a supply. But beside that special efforts are made to treat everyone the same, as Canadians and Christians. The term 'Anabaptist' is used regarding faith group instead of 'Mennonite'.

I'm not suggesting this is easily done but those who believe it is the scriptural way to grow Christ's Church and are willing to let go of some of their traditions or at least, not impose them on others, it opens a door to evangelism and reaching all who Christ came to save. Some may see this as a compromise they are unwilling to take and remain 95%+ from one single culture.

Why not go one or two steps further and hire a pastor who has no Christian or Canadian background (say an Indian Hindu) but who has no issue with Christian beliefs? And then only hold on to one or two cultural distinctives and treat everyone the same as humans? If the goal is to be all-inclusive...

[Sudsy]

By 1550, the majority of Anabaptists believed and practiced...
1. love towards enemies (non-resistance)
2. separation unto God (non-conformity)
3. sharing extra resources with the poor as well as for the promotion of the Gospel (non-accumulation)
4. a voluntary but disciplined association of believers (pure church)
5. separation of church and state (two-kingdoms)
6. taking the Gospel to those who have not yet heard (evangelism/missions)
7. baptism upon confession of faith and walking in newness of life (believer's baptism)

Few others at that time period adhered to all seven of these points.

I think all seven of these are alive and well in various pockets of Anabaptist descendants today. But unfortunately, many Anabaptist churches today allow members in the church who do not embrace all these tenets. I think this is very sad. I'd like to see more renewal movements taking place among Anabaptists.

In reality. 1 and 2 (and to a lesser extent 4 and 5) are our "distinctives." You will find the others in various other movements , but by and large if you start expressing a belief in 1 & 2 (particularly 1) in most of the so called "Bible Believing" church, you will find yourself an outcast, and very quickly. Maybe not officially, but certainly socially.

In my experience, this 'outcast' thing was not evident. I have been part of local churches that have an influx of believers that are non-resistant in their belief and that has not been a big issue socially. Perhaps because there is more tolerance in some churches for varied beliefs from what is deemed to be essential beliefs. Currently our city has a influx of Mennonites into a local Baptist church where they are being welcomed and given roles in the church. They are socially accepted but they also are not wearing conservative type Mennonite clothes or trying to get converts to their non-resistant belief, so this might be different if they were.

When I first joined an Evangelistic Baptist church, there where some Mennonites that joined about the same time and they, too, were socially welcomed and given roles. There was no effort to get them to change their non-resistance belief but there was a certain effort by some to pursuade them of the TULIP Calvinist view. I don't recall any conversions to that view. It was not a big deal as the church was focused on reaching the lost.

We have a friend who was a faithful Presbyterian church member and her church recently closed. Some joined the Baptist church and she decided to go UMC. My wife recently asked her how this was working out and she had a very positive reply and especially mentioned how she felt so welcome.

I recall home bible studies where aside from what was deemed to be a salvation issue there was open discussion and varying views that did not break fellowship. I think it depends on how dogmatic one believes on certain beliefs and whether they are essential beliefs or not.

[Sudsy]

We know what Christ said about hirelings…. Won’t find anything in regard to the historic or Anabaptist church participating in paid pastors. So you lost us right there, Sudsy.

Not true as probably the largest Anabaptist churches have paid pastors.