Palestine - (non-eschatological)

[Bootstrap]

I think this map accurately shows what the United Nations says the legal borders of Israel and Palestine are now.

Note that Palestine is completely within the area that the United States State Department calls The Occupied Territories.

The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), with the division of responsibilities overlapping in much of the territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel

[Ken]

The map you posted showing a shrinking black "Palestinian" zone (which I am reposting below) is absolutely NOT accurate.

Pre-1917 it was all Ottoman Empire (i.e. Turkey), and not some black zone defined as Palestine as shown on the first panel

The 1947 map simply represents a UN plan that was never actually implemented. Palestinians chose war instead of accepting the 1947 map as depicted.

Post 1948 Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan so those black zones should be attached to those countries. They were not in any sense "Palestinian territories" They were lands annexed by Egypt and Jordan that were lost when those countries went to war with Israel in 1967.

Since then what the maps are showing is shrinking Palestinian/Arab areas of settlement as Jewish settlers are populating the Jordan valley and various other parts of the West Bank. But again, this is somewhat deceptive because there are many Arab settlements in Israel proper as well. The Arab population of Israel (the bright yellow parts of the map) is about 2 million which is equal to the West Bank and they are scattered across Israel in various concentrations.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Generally good article, although without discussion of the Sykes–Picot Agreement, and the implications of British and French "Misrule" in the region, as well as the low-level settler violence in the West Bank it makes little sense.

Also the delegitimization of Pan-Arab secularism in the following years as a result of the Arab defeat in the 1973 war really plays into the rise of Hamas. All Hamas is is the local branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

[ohio jones]

Pre-1917 it was all Ottoman Empire (i.e. Turkey), and not some black zone defined as Palestine as shown on the first panel

The 1917 map should be labeled 1920-1948 to represent British Mandatory Palestine. It was not ruled by Palestinians or Arabs, nor exclusively populated by them. There was a small but growing Jewish minority, and other non-Arab minorities.

The 1947 map simply represents a UN plan that was never actually implemented. Palestinians chose war instead of accepting the 1947 map as depicted.

Post 1948 Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan so those black zones should be attached to those countries. They were not in any sense "Palestinian territories" They were lands annexed by Egypt and Jordan that were lost when those countries went to war with Israel in 1967.

Precisely.

If black represents areas controlled by Palestinians (or administered by them semi-autonomously), there shouldn't be any black on the map until after the 1993 Oslo accords.

[Ken]

Pre-1917 it was all Ottoman Empire (i.e. Turkey), and not some black zone defined as Palestine as shown on the first panel

The 1917 map should be labeled 1920-1948 to represent British Mandatory Palestine. It was not ruled by Palestinians or Arabs, nor exclusively populated by them. There was a small but growing Jewish minority, and other non-Arab minorities.

It still isn't an accurate map. Shading it black along those outlines is also revisionist history. The boundaries of the British Mandate were the following

[Ken]

And after 1922, the British closed off the eastern portion of the Mandate (east of the Jordan River) to any Jewish settlement which in effect forced all Jewish settlement into the the areas that now compose the state of Israel.

[Ernie]

How is it, for example, that over 350,000 people (mostly Muslims) have been killed in the Syrian civil war (mostly by the Alawite Assad regime with the assistance of Russia and Iran) and you see nary a peep of protest around the world. But conflict between Israel and Hamas kills 3% of those numbers and the entire planet seems to erupt in protest?

Very good question. Is there a list of all the various attacks in Syria that resulted in fatalities over the last 12 years?

[Ken]

How is it, for example, that over 350,000 people (mostly Muslims) have been killed in the Syrian civil war (mostly by the Alawite Assad regime with the assistance of Russia and Iran) and you see nary a peep of protest around the world. But conflict between Israel and Hamas kills 3% of those numbers and the entire planet seems to erupt in protest?

Very good question. Is there a list of all the various attacks in Syria that resulted in fatalities over the last 12 years?

Yes, it is very long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _civil_war

[silentreader]

How is it, for example, that over 350,000 people (mostly Muslims) have been killed in the Syrian civil war (mostly by the Alawite Assad regime with the assistance of Russia and Iran) and you see nary a peep of protest around the world. But conflict between Israel and Hamas kills 3% of those numbers and the entire planet seems to erupt in protest?

Very good question. Is there a list of all the various attacks in Syria that resulted in fatalities over the last 12 years?

IMO the answer is somewhat eschatological, so off limits for here.

[Jazman]

A great deal of Palestinians migrated to the U.S. around the time of WWI. Most of them were Arab Catholics (before such as thing as pan-Arab identity really existed) and integrated into general Catholic American society. You would be hard pressed to identify any of them in America today. Many of them would think they have “Lebanese” ancestry, and a common example of a surname would be Nader.

Interestingly, a massive wave of Palestinian and Lebanese Christians migrated to Central America and Columbia around the same time and continued to do so over the next few decades. Outside the U.S., Honduras has the highest number of Palestinian immigrants/descendants in all of America. Here they're still known as Turquos (Turks) because at the time of initial immigration their passport was from the Ottoman Empire. They tend to be very wealthy and the owners of local businesses, media outlets and large corporations. Some of the Honduran-born descendants have gone quite far in politics and 2 have become president. Many came over as Eastern Orthodox and while there are a few EO churches in the country; many converted to Catholicism for convenience.

I teach a number of their descendants at my school with last names like: Barjum, Hilsaca, Kawas, Kattan, Gabrie & Canahuati; a certain Mr. Hilsaca is one of my closest friends in Honduras.

They try their best to maintain their culture and heritage and many of the older generations still speak Arab amongst themselves. In the largest city there's an exclusive organization called Club Arabe that requires that at least one parent be fully Turquo for membership. Indeed, a lot of the Turquo culture, especially the food, has mixed into the wider Honduran culture.

Very interesting! Never knew that except for your voice being here and you being on the ground there. Thanks!