The Dresden Bombing and Aftermath

[Ken]

Who are you including in this "we"?

We as in the Allies (United States, Canada, UK, Australia, etc.)

USSR

The USSR was not involved in the Pacific War against Japan until they opportunistically jumped in AFTER the Hiroshima bombing. This is the timeline

August 6, 1945 US bombs Hiroshima
August 8, 1945 USSR declares war on Japan and invades Manchuria
August 9, 1945 US bombs Nagasaki
September 2, 1945 Japan surrenders

[ohio jones]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

This sounds more like Gandhi than Jesus.

It sounds like Ron Sider's original vision for CPT, before it was co-opted by people to his left.

[ohio jones]

How many people would have died if we had done that route and staved out Japan up into 1947? Probably many millions.

Who are you including in this "we"?

We as in the Allies (United States, Canada, UK, Australia, etc.)

I have a we little objection to being included in the waging of a war that I was not alive during.

[Ken]

Who are you including in this "we"?

We as in the Allies (United States, Canada, UK, Australia, etc.)

I have a we little objection to being included in the waging of a war that I was not alive during.

Most of us were not alive during WW2. But our parents and grandparents lived in a society in which their collective efforts contributed to the war effort. My Menno grandparents were both farmers and their production of wheat, corn, milk, etc. contributed to the war effort as did the income taxes that they paid. And they also profited from the war as well because agricultural commodity prices went way up during the war. They did not disengage from society and lead their families off into the wilderness to exist on locusts and wild honey.

Unless you live completely off the grid and don't participate in commerce at all, you are connected to the collective decisions and actions of the nation in which you live. I disagree with vast numbers of decisions that my national, state, and local governments make. But I recognize they are collective decisions nonetheless. Starting with the Constitution itself which begins "We the people...."

You can quibble with the language I suppose. But that really wasn't my point.

[HondurasKeiser]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

This sounds more like Gandhi than Jesus.

It sounds like Ron Sider's original vision for CPT, before it was co-opted by people to his left.

Which in the end is more Gandhi than Jesus...even before the co-opting happens and the "C" for Christian becomes the "C" for Community.

[barnhart]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

I agree. Right now the most effective method for Christians to stop war is to stop fighting in them. The most deadly war in the world pits soldiers claiming Christianity against others making the same claim.

[joshuabgood]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

I think you are spot on here. Few people have the faith or suffering love to attempt such a thing. But in essence, I think that in fact is the way of the cross, the power of the cross, etc.

[Ken]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

I think you are spot on here. Few people have the faith or suffering love to attempt such a thing. But in essence, I think that in fact is the way of the cross, the power of the cross, etc.

Can you cite any examples from the over two thousand year history of Christianity in which this has actually happened? Ever?

[joshuabgood]

I am still not convinced that declaring war saves more lives in the end. If millions of citizens were sent to other parts of the world to offer love and peace, people might still get killed, but in the end, I think less people overall would get killed.

I think you are spot on here. Few people have the faith or suffering love to attempt such a thing. But in essence, I think that in fact is the way of the cross, the power of the cross, etc.

Can you cite any examples from the over two thousand year history of Christianity in which this has actually happened? Ever?

The Quakers various lambs wars as opposed to the Oliver Cromwell method?

Also as has been said, it isn't that Christianity has been tried and found wanting, it is that it requires faith and sacrifice and thus really isn't tried.

[Ken]

I think you are spot on here. Few people have the faith or suffering love to attempt such a thing. But in essence, I think that in fact is the way of the cross, the power of the cross, etc.

Can you cite any examples from the over two thousand year history of Christianity in which this has actually happened? Ever?

The Quakers various lambs wars as opposed to the Oliver Cromwell method?

Also as has been said, it isn't that Christianity has been tried and found wanting, it is that it requires faith and sacrifice and thus really isn't tried.

Well yes, but despite the Quakers, the English Civil Wars were still the bloodiest wars in English history. So I'm not sure if that is an example of "tried and found wanting" or "wasn't really tried"

I personally don't think you ever really bring long lasting peace without (1) solving the problems or conflicts that led to war in the first place and/or (2) making war the most costly and unpalatable choice of all the options for nations or people contemplating war.

Both of those things require real policy and political structures, not just faith.