Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Pelerin
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

Post by Pelerin »

Ken wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 12:42 amThe number I found for the early 1500s was 10% literacy not 1%.

I threw the 1% number out there as a random guess as to how many ordinary Germans in the 1530s would have been literate enough in Latin to be able to walk into a Medieval church and read the Bible, which would have been written in Latin. And then to be proficient enough in Latin to be able to understand the nuances of Biblical teachings.
One of the things I’ve been realizing is that the picture we have (or at least that I was taught) of the Catholic Church and the Bible at the time is mostly a myth. To sketch that picture briefly: the Catholic Church used the Latin Vulgate and suppressed any alternatives, especially those translations into the vernacular. This might be illustrated by William Tyndale (who is actually a Reformation figure).

One of the things that piqued my interest in the first article was the Brethren of the Common Life read the Bible in vernacular (see the end of the line I quoted above). It seems like vernacular Bibles were not all that uncommon, especially in the years before the Reformation. The Wikipedia article is helpful for German, listing several early translations as well as eighteen different German editions printed in the seventy years before Luther (i.e. post-Gutenberg).

To take this further, the Brethren of the Common Life seem to be one of several renewal-minded movements in the years and even centuries before the Reformation, among which others would include the Lollards, Franciscans, Hussites, and Moravians. Luther was in some ways just the latest in a series. I think the picture we should have of pre-Reformation Europe is not one of illiterate benighted peasants being chanted at in a language they don’t understand, waiting for the Luther to come blaze the way. Rather we should picture people that were familiar with the Bible and very engaged in religious questions and who offered fertile ground for Luther and, later, the Anabaptists (as well as Catholic reformers too).
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Pelerin
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Oh and by the way, back to Münster: it should be pointed out that some of their most egregious acts didn’t come about in spite of whatever level of biblical literacy they had but rather because of it. You don’t wake up one morning and just decide you’re the second coming of King David without knowing who King David is. “And look, I read here that David had himself half a dozen wives; well, don’t mind if I do then, thank you very much.” That comes from knowing the Bible.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Pelerin wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:12 pm Oh and by the way, back to Münster: it should be pointed out that some of their most egregious acts didn’t come about in spite of whatever level of biblical literacy they had but rather because of it. You don’t wake up one morning and just decide you’re the second coming of King David without knowing who King David is. “And look, I read here that David had himself half a dozen wives; well, don’t mind if I do then, thank you very much.” That comes from knowing the Bible.
Knowledge without Jesus is just knowledge. The law also forbid the kings from having multiple wives.
These people had tasted power and justified what they wanted with Scripture. All these groups did and do the same thing. This is part of the reason we need to test teaching against the Scripture in context.
Similarly people today justify war based on king David.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Soloist wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:35 pm
Pelerin wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 2:12 pm Oh and by the way, back to Münster: it should be pointed out that some of their most egregious acts didn’t come about in spite of whatever level of biblical literacy they had but rather because of it. You don’t wake up one morning and just decide you’re the second coming of King David without knowing who King David is. “And look, I read here that David had himself half a dozen wives; well, don’t mind if I do then, thank you very much.” That comes from knowing the Bible.
Knowledge without Jesus is just knowledge. The law also forbid the kings from having multiple wives.
These people had tasted power and justified what they wanted with Scripture. All these groups did and do the same thing. This is part of the reason we need to test teaching against the Scripture in context.
Similarly people today justify war based on king David.
Which Old Testament law forbade polygamy?

Abraham had 3 wives
Jacob had 2 wives and 2 concubines
Soloman had 700 wives and 300 concubines (sex slaves from conquered lands)
David had 7 wives that are named and possible more unnamed wives and concubines. According to 2 Samuel 12 it was God who gave him his wives.
etc...
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Ken wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:45 pm
Which Old Testament law forbade polygamy?

Abraham had 3 wives
Jacob had 2 wives and 2 concubines
Soloman had 700 wives and 300 concubines (sex slaves from conquered lands)
David had 7 wives that are named and possible more unnamed wives and concubines. According to 2 Samuel 12 it was God who gave him his wives.
etc...
1: in the beginning as Jesus refers to
Mat 19:4  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Secondly: as the law was wrote
Deu 17:15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
Deu 17:16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
Deu 17:17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
Solomon Is really a prime example of why God said this.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

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Ken wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:45 pm Soloman had 700 wives and 300 concubines (sex slaves from conquered lands)
He was quite the opposite of a solo man. :)
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

Post by Josh »

Deu. 17:7 says "Do not multiply wives for yourself". But, yes, the Bible never has an actual prohibition against polygamy.

Christian tradition is not to do it, and virtually all Christians today honour that tradition.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:01 pm
Ken wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 4:45 pm
Which Old Testament law forbade polygamy?

Abraham had 3 wives
Jacob had 2 wives and 2 concubines
Soloman had 700 wives and 300 concubines (sex slaves from conquered lands)
David had 7 wives that are named and possible more unnamed wives and concubines. According to 2 Samuel 12 it was God who gave him his wives.
etc...
1: in the beginning as Jesus refers to
Mat 19:4  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Secondly: as the law was wrote
Deu 17:15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
Deu 17:16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
Deu 17:17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
Solomon Is really a prime example of why God said this.
I don't disagree that you can find teaching against polygamy in the New Testament. Or at least the understanding that a marriage is between a single husband and wife.

I was asking which Old Testament law forbid the Old Testament Kings from having multiple wives when they were living around 1000 years before the birth of Jesus.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:42 pm
I don't disagree that you can find teaching against polygamy in the New Testament. Or at least the understanding that a marriage is between a single husband and wife.

I was asking which Old Testament law forbid the Old Testament Kings from having multiple wives when they were living around 1000 years before the birth of Jesus.
Did you not read what I posted? I posted the exact law pertaining to kings. I referenced Jesus just because it was quicker to find but that is a direct quote of Genesis. Please go and actually read my post.
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Re: Münster: It's relationship to Anabaptism.

Post by Pelerin »

*goes to church*

*comes back home*

*decides to check in on the discussion of early modern literacy while waiting for supper to cook*

Oh no, what have I done?

IMG_8804.jpeg
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