Paganism

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Josh
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Re: Paganism

Post by Josh »

Good articles, HK, and part of my perspective comes from having dated a pagan back when I was not a religious person at all. I will say that I think her religious beliefs were sincere and she had good motives.

Regarding #1, that is true of classical paganism, but does not seem to manifest in modern-day American paganism:
1. First, the question of difference. What to do with those who are not like us? Easy enough, argued the pagans: Observe any group of humans, no matter how small, and you’ll see it striving to differentiate itself from the group next door. The nomadic Bedouins expressed this idea neatly in an idiom: me and my brothers against our cousins, us and our cousins against our neighbors. Tell children at summer camp that a color war’s afoot, and pretty soon Team Red is likely to develop healthy disdain for Team Blue. Rather than seek to transcend this basic instinct, the pagans sanctified it: It wasn’t for nothing that the Slavs, for example, named their top god Perun, an Indo-European word meaning to strike and splinter, and portrayed him as swinging a mighty axe and engaging in ongoing battles with his fellow divines.
The modern-day pagan is much more universalist: they feel comfortable telling someone they can be pagan and another religion at the same time, and how eagerly they accept people of all faiths or backgrounds. This is an important distinction. The other person practicing pagan witchcraft I mentioned earlier would very much be of the same stripe, although based on some of her writings she feels a bit at war with fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. But that is the only "those who are like us" I think she would feel at all.

This may not be true of the "right wing" sort of pagan, which does seem to exist and is growing, and who is eager to find identity in ancestry, culture, and ethnicity - and to thus define "those who are not like us". There is a certain grasping at straws here. I knew someone who was eager to learn more about Norse paganism, but eventually faced that some religious practices required having only Norse ancestors and being born or living in certain places. He wasn't able to fully meet those requirements since he was born in America.
2. Next, then, the pagans turn their lonely eyes toward nature, asking themselves how to understand the creations in their midst. Here, too, a relatively straight forward answer presents itself immediately: If the boundaries between the human world, the natural world, and the divine world aren’t clearly defined—if Zeus, say, can transform himself into a beautiful white bull so that he may rape Princess Europa—then nature should be revered as the repository of divine revelation and rebirth. The Roman historian Tacitus, for example, tells us that the ancient Germanic tribes often worshipped in groves rather than temples. It’s easy to figure out why: Observe the oak in winter, and it stands, barren and leafless, a pillar of death. Visit it some weeks later, when spring is in full bloom, and you see it flourish again. The oak, like the gods, is change embodied, and therefore deserving of worship.
Regarding #2, certainly so. It means little statues and carvings in the house, but this practice is difficult for the pagan in modern America because they are so far removed from nature. (Some practices become difficult if you live in an apartment.) But with that said, practices such as growing a "witch's garden" and trying to create special potions from various herbs is certainly on the rise, and the modern-day pagans I would know even practice it to ward off illness, "bad vibes" from relatives of fundamentalist Christian faith, and other "bad" things like a stillbirth or a child dying.
But if pagans have always found the questions of how to treat others and how to live in nature relatively uncomplicated, the third question—that of how to please the gods—is infinitely more shaded. What do the gods want? Study pagan mythologies and you’ll emerge none the wiser, in part because the gods, like their human worshippers, seem to consist of little more than appetites and caprices. But while they may not be understood, they have to be appeased—and this left classical pagans with a question of a more practical order, namely what might they possess that the all-powerful deities could possibly want.

Gold, silver, and other dear things were frequently the answer, but rarely exclusively: Being the creators of the natural world, after all, the gods could hardly care that much about things that they can easily forge themselves, ex nihilo, by virtue of their divine will. And so the pagans scanned the horizon for something truly precious and exquisite, something whose sacrifice would be an unmistakable sign of devotion. And, across time and across cultures, they alighted on exactly the same thing: kids.

At once the embodiment of innocence and the object of our deepest and most sincere emotions, children, the most vulnerable of mortals, were the ultimate offering to the gods—proof that the pagan believer was so certain in his belief that he would offer up his own offspring to show the gods the strength of his faith, appeasing them and avoiding potential punishment. So prevalent among the heathens of antiquity was the practice of child sacrifice that the Torah issued a strongly worded prohibition against it, in Leviticus 18:21: “Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek.”
The clearest connection I can make between #3 is that of the American practice of abortion, and the Western practice of birth control being behind that. But this is by no means universal in America. The "right wing" sort of pagan (which seems to exist in America and indeed be growing) will be steadfastly against abortion - or at least will be against abortion for his own people. I have seen these kind of people make statements that abortion for "those who are not like us" is a good thing. To me, this seems to be an embrace of #3 - instead of sacrificing one's own children, one fully supports sacrificing one's rivals' children.
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HondurasKeiser
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Re: Paganism

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:53 pm One of the most shocking things to me is families that I grew up with who thought they were conservative, homeschooling Christians whose children now practice outright paganism. And by that I mean, casting spells, brewing potions, growing a "witch's garden", and publicly claiming to practice "witchcraft".

In one case, a young mother practices it because she believes she can protect her children so she can avoid having a stillborn and a young child (her sibling) die like her mother experienced. This strikes me as very similar to the reasons heathen peoples practice paganism.

More interestingly, these people seem to see no problem blending being both Christian and practicing witchcraft.
Anecdotally I've seen a lot of that too, even here among the children of the elite Hondurans that I teach. Astrology, horoscopes, dabbling in "white witchcraft" and the notion of manifesting and 'putting things out into the universe' are all growing in popularity among my students. These are children, mostly of non-denominational-type parents that have serious doubts about Christianity and even the existence of God but have no problem in believing the "spirituality" of the things mentioned above. They all seem to spend a goodly portion of their lives online, particularly on social medias.

My sister told me 10 years ago that a lot of her friends, all evangelical-style Christians, had gotten into smudging.
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temporal1
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Re: Paganism

Post by temporal1 »

^^o.no. now i have even more to worry about my grdaughter.

i’m 15min into the OP video (i wouldn’t miss the first 8 min) .. so far, no mention of Paul as an inspired apostle, or the Holy Spirit ..
i’m listening for these things. the focus seems to be on human wisdom, genius, human reasoning? i’m unsure. as usual.

just starting.

plus, i’ll probably listen more than once, repeat sections, etc.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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HondurasKeiser
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Re: Paganism

Post by HondurasKeiser »

temporal1 wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:20 pm ^^o.no. now i have even more to worry about my grdaughter.

i’m 15min into the OP video (i wouldn’t miss the first 8 min) .. so far, no mention of Paul as an inspired apostle, or the Holy Spirit ..
i’m listening for these things. the focus seems to be on human wisdom, genius, human reasoning? i’m unsure. as usual.

just starting.

plus, i’ll probably listen more than once, repeat sections, etc.
It's more of an historical discussion on the conversion of Paul, the classical world and the milieu in which he worked and evangelized and finally the impact of Paul's teachings on the modern world. N.T. Wright is very careful to ground that last point in Paul's belief in Jesus as very God himself. Tom Holland, not a believer himself is nevertheless sure to agree that Paul clearly believed Jesus to be the Son of God and that fact changes everything.
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HondurasKeiser
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Re: Paganism

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Here's a Patheos blog post from a few years ago about the sexual ethos of paganism. I'm curious Neto, if you can see the "Sex as Domination" paradigm at work in the Banawa?
In the Ancient world, it was simply taken for granted that sex was about power. The social order was defined by a hierarchy of concentric circles. At the center, the free, male, citizen, and then in concentric circles, women, freedmen, foreigners, children, and so on. The main paradigm for sex was not heterosexual/homosexual, married/unmarried, even reproductive/non-reproductive, it was active/passive or dominant/submissive, and the main taboo was for someone who was supposed to be “active” to be “passive”.

This is why sexual slavery (particularly of children) was not frowned upon, and neither was homosexuality as long as it involved an older man and a younger man so that it was clear that the relationship had an “active” and a “passive” participant. Heterosexual marriage was also perfectly understood, since women were of a lower social status than men.

It’s worth dwelling for a second on the world that these beliefs created. The practice of expositio, the exposing of infants, was widespread and unproblematic, since children were of lower status than adults. And the extant sources we have concur: the typical fate of exposed infants was either death or ‘adoption’ into slavery, which was typically sexual slavery since that was the most profitable use for a child. Brothels specializing in child sex slaves were established, legal businesses; the majority, it seems, specializing in boy sex slaves. Sources describe sex with castrated slaves as particularly exciting, and sources report that babies were sometimes castrated so that they could work in brothels later on. Pagan apologists roundly mocked the early Christians for not only not practicing expositio (an echo of which can be found in anti-Catholic Protestant polemics against teeming mackerel-snapping families) but rescuing exposed infants and adopting them.
Sex is always about power, about domination. And that can be exciting. (Don’t lie.) But Christianity came on the scene proclaiming a very different ethic: Paul described marital relations as an allegory of the relationship between Christ and the Church, a relationship which was, of course, one of self-giving unto death. In a civilization that was all about power, Christianity proclaimed the end of power. Sex was endowed with a heightened sacred dimension, which meant that it could only be done under certain circumstances, precisely because it was not about power but about self-gift, just like Christ was the King who had won his victory through death on a Cross.

On the Christian reading, this facet of sexuality is very easily understandable: the urge to dominate and to “lord it over” is the sinful urge, the root of Adam’s sin, and it is not surprising that it would be such an important aspect of a central facet of our lives such as sexuality. In the classical Christian reading, sin does not exist as such, but is instead a lack or a corruption of the good. Sexuality is good, but because of sin must be disciplined and purified into a form of Christlike self-gift, whether through abstinence or through marital (reproductive) sex.
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Ken
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Re: Paganism

Post by Ken »

Isn't paganism just a term invented by Christian philosophers from around the time of Constantine as a blanket term to describe all non-Christian religions? Or at least all non-Judeo Christian religions? So basically Greco-Roman polytheism and the various other more tribal belief systems from groups like the Celts and Norse? None of those people would have described themselves as pagan at that time.

The authors you are citing seem to be making sweeping generalizations about all non-Christian belief systems from the Norse to the Navajo and Hopi to Amazonian tribal beliefs to Hinduism. I expect you will find just as much contrast between say the Navajo ideas of Hózhóójí and the Hindu doctrine of Saṃsāra as you would between Christianity and either one of those.

The authors also seem to be talking largely about a recent uptick in interest in ancient European pagan traditions that were replaced by Christianity during the middle ages or before. There was a wave of the same thing in the 19th Century during when there was a revival of classical literature and architecture. But polytheistic paganism never really disappeared in much of the rest of the world from Hindu India to many parts of Latin America and Africa where older religious were more or less absorbed into Catholicism.
Last edited by Ken on Fri Apr 21, 2023 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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temporal1
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Re: Paganism

Post by temporal1 »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:28 pm
temporal1 wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:20 pm ^^o.no. now i have even more to worry about my grdaughter.

i’m 15min into the OP video (i wouldn’t miss the first 8 min) .. so far, no mention of Paul as an inspired apostle, or the Holy Spirit ..
i’m listening for these things. the focus seems to be on human wisdom, genius, human reasoning? i’m unsure. as usual.

just starting.

plus, i’ll probably listen more than once, repeat sections, etc.
It's more of an historical discussion on the conversion of Paul, the classical world and the milieu in which he worked and evangelized and finally the impact of Paul's teachings on the modern world. N.T. Wright is very careful to ground that last point in Paul's belief in Jesus as very God himself.

Tom Holland, not a believer himself is nevertheless sure to agree that Paul clearly believed Jesus to be the Son of God
and that fact changes everything.
i’m loving the video discussion, but my brain is having trouble trying to grasp Paul on secular Greek-Roman terms. i’m trying!
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
HondurasKeiser
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Re: Paganism

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Ken wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:56 pm Isn't paganism just a term invented by Christian philosophers from around the time of Constantine as a blanket term to describe all non-Christian religions? Or at least all non-Judeo Christian religions? So basically Greco-Roman polytheism and the various other more tribal belief systems from groups like the Celts and Norse? None of those people would have described themselves as pagan at that time.

The authors you are citing seem to be making sweeping generalizations about all non-Christian belief systems from the Norse to the Navajo and Hopi to Amazonian tribal beliefs to Hinduism. I expect you will find just as much contrast between say the Navajo ideas of Hózhóójí and the Hindu doctrine of Saṃsāra as you would between Christianity and either one of those.

The authors also seem to be talking largely about a recent uptick in interest in ancient European pagan traditions that were replaced by Christianity during the middle ages or before. There was a wave of the same thing in the 19th Century during when there was a revival of classical literature and architecture. But polytheistic paganism never really disappeared in much of the rest of the world from Hindu India to many parts of Latin America and Africa where older religious were more or less absorbed into Catholicism.
Yes.
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MaxPC
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Re: Paganism

Post by MaxPC »

Outstanding thread, HK. I appreciate your research and will watch the video as well. A few random thoughts and then I will quietly follow.

The articles and videos have brought into the spotlight a trend that can be traced as early as the Victorian era in which séances were popular among the middle and upper classes in English-speaking circles. Indeed, I have seen a great deal of superstitious practices in all cultures and denominations. If I may venture an observation, this seems to be one of those human behaviors that relates to original sin and immaturity in one's relationship with God. Further these behaviors can be spotted in various points of Christian history. Paul the Apostle addressed these behaviors.

Polytheism, animism and spell crafting have never quite disappeared. In certain cultures some of the laity have even blended these beliefs with certain Catholic and Orthodox minor devotions (much to the dismay of the hierarchy, I might add).
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Re: Paganism

Post by ohio jones »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:04 pm My sister told me 10 years ago that a lot of her friends, all evangelical-style Christians, had gotten into smudging.
And then there are the Amish who practice brauche and similar things.
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