MLK and the churches behind him

[JimFoxvog]

I think calling temporal1 “racist” is in bad faith and you should immediately retract your accusation. She is not racist at all.

I only saw assumptions being called racist, not people. Same way as it's fine to say my wife has epilepsy, but not call her an "epileptic".

[Szdfan]

Really??? And how would you have come to that knowledge?

This thread illustrates the problem of talking about race on a forum dominated by white people. There are some rather racist assumptions about what black people want or don't want by participants who have no idea what they're talking about.

… and what makes either you or joshuabgood designated representatives who can explain to use what “black people want” (as if they’re some amorphous entity and not individuals and all have identical desires and wants)?

I think calling temporal1 “racist” is in bad faith and you should immediately retract your accusation. She is not racist at all.

In Petr's last post he argued:

• Integration is bad because it made white people uncomfortable and forced them to go to "bad" black schools.
• That race relations in the US were better when black and white people were separate and didn't have to interact with each other
• That black students and their parents are uninterested in education.
• That one of the benefits of segregation is that it created was class of black middle class shop owners.

Yes, I think these are racist arguments coming from a position of ignorance about the history and realities of Jim Crow. My interpretation is that Petr thinks the US Civil Rights movement was a mistake and that we'd be better off if we were still segregated. He's welcome to clarify if that's not what he meant.

I don't know whether Temp is racist, but she's making supportive comments about a racist argument. I suspect this has more to do about sticking it to liberals than about race.

[Szdfan]

… and what makes either you or joshuabgood designated representatives who can explain to use what “black people want” (as if they’re some amorphous entity and not individuals and all have identical desires and wants)?

Also, Petr is the one here who is telling us what black people want. He's the one who stated that black students and their parents aren't interested in the education that white schools offer. He's the one who argued that blacks benefited from segregation because of "black stores."

Temp has repeatedly speculated that MLK would have a negative reaction to the success of the Civil Rights Movement in the US. How does she know?

Who are the ones in this thread who are explaining what "black people want?" It's not joshuabgood or I. We're the ones questioning those kind of statements.

[temporal1]

… and what makes either you or joshuabgood designated representatives who can explain to use what “black people want” (as if they’re some amorphous entity and not individuals and all have identical desires and wants)?

I think calling temporal1 “racist” is in bad faith and you should immediately retract your accusation. She is not racist at all.

Thanks, Josh, coming from you, i really appreciate this.
In present and sorry U.S. political climate, it’s hard to keep a balance that looks anything like scriptures describe.
i know you try!

Again, there is so much “reading in” about intent. The internet puts it on display everyday.
Say a “PC-wrong” word, dare to have a non-PC thought - have the wrong skin color (now it’s white, ‘cause, PC is fickle, you know) -
and, “OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!” It’s like clockwork. And does not reflect well on the state of either hearts or formal education.

Notice, i did not HINT at agreement with, or even understanding of PetrC’s words. Reading comprehension is so important.

i’m impressed PetrC attempts to broach lots of topics, across language and cultural boundaries; before sending him to the PC gallows, i’d want to be sure i’m “reading him right” and understanding where he’s coming from. He has a right to not be on the exact page as all-knowing U.S. political ideologues that have literally been nursed with lib PC bias from birth.

(i think) PetrC has shared he uses this forum to practice English (??) Brave man.

(i might) return to break down and respond to his post line by line .. i might not. i have questions about it.
It’s an interesting post that i will not presume to understand in full, and won’t dismiss just because it doesn’t PRECISELY match
“what i’m used to” reading.

Kinda like Chris in his recent thread .. viewtopic.php?t=5687
Not everyone thinks in PC lockstep, this should be tolerated, if not encouraged. Esp by those in “education.”

So you wince once in awhile. c'est la vie
Maybe it’s good for us to wince now+then. It’s proof we’re still breathing.

It’s fair to say, if you can’t stand wincing, Jesus may not be your choice.

[temporal1]

Kinda like Chris in his recent thread .. viewtopic.php?t=5687

don’t overlook Chris’s explanation on P.31, or ohio jones’ response to him.

[Szdfan]

Again, there is so much “reading in” about intent. The internet puts it on display everyday.
Say a “PC-wrong” word, dare to have a non-PC thought - have the wrong skin color (now it’s white, ‘cause, PC is fickle, you know) -
and, “OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!” It’s like clockwork. And does not reflect well on the state of either hearts or formal education.

• Petr is been open and clear that he seeks common cause between Anabaptists and contemporary nationalist movements in the US and Europe. Many of these movements have an element of racism in them. I don't think his intentions are an unknowable mystery.
• Forums are for discussion and debate. Pushing back on someone's statements that I disagree with isn't sending someone to the "PC gallows."
• You often write about the importance of questioning everything, yet to me it often feels like attempt to cut off discussion or questioning about perspectives you agree with or people you like.
• Granted, Petr is dealing with issues regarding language and culture. However, I also know from my childhood in Germany that Germans in general know a lot more about American culture and history than Americans know about Germany. I remember some of my friends in youth group tell me about the concept of the "American Dream" that they were studying in history class. There's even a university level field in "America studies" called "Americanistik."
• Aso, if Petr is unintentionally making arguments with racist assumptions because of language and cultural barriers, isn't it reasonable for native speakers to point it out to him?
• And I'm happy if Petr clarifies what he meant and I was wrong in my understanding.

[temporal1]

.. And I'm happy if Petr clarifies what he meant ..

This is an intelligent and thoughtful response.
If i respond, it would be line by line, i think with questions about clarification and probably sources. i avoid jumping on ESL people about language nuances, my world has been filled nonstop with ESL people from first grade. i don’t rush to correct. i try to understand and learn. there’s a lot to be learned.

i don’t attach too much significance to your childhood experience in Germany .. if i’d lived in Lancaster County for a period, i would not presume to know it all about Amish+Mennonite living there. International/intercultural travel is great. It’s not the end-all be-all. You lived in some part of Germany, that’s nice. Full stop.

[Josh]

i don’t attach too much significance to your childhood experience in Germany .. if i’d lived in Lancaster County for a period, i would not presume to know it all about Amish+Mennonite living there. International/intercultural travel is great. It’s not the end-all be-all. You lived in some part of Germany, that’s nice. Full stop.

I went on a business trip to Aachen once and stopped by in Cologne during Karneval. Isn’t that nice?

[temporal1]

i don’t attach too much significance to your childhood experience in Germany .. if i’d lived in Lancaster County for a period, i would not presume to know it all about Amish+Mennonite living there. International/intercultural travel is great. It’s not the end-all be-all. You lived in some part of Germany, that’s nice. Full stop.

I went on a business trip to Aachen once and stopped by in Cologne during Karneval. Isn’t that nice?

i’m not sure if this forum is unique, with so many international travelers, including mission work; are they the majority here?
sometimes i wonder if the “plain” appearance and informal content can be misleading about how sophisticated the “average” MN member is? .. my perception is, most prefer understatement. it’s ‘way more than hacks-like-me.

[Joy]

News flash: "Black schools" and "White Schools" haven't been a thing in the US since 1954. That is 70 years ago.

And what is this business about Black stores and White stores? That is the language of Jim Crow. Maybe you should visit the US and see how things actually are.

I beg your pardon, my town only had black schools and white schools when I was in grade school and junior high, into the '60's.

There are still black businesses in the town, meaning run by people of color and not friendly to white people.