The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

[Bootstrap]

When I started this thread, I started it under these assumptions:

1. There really is such a thing as committed discipleship that is focused on promoting the Kingdom of God, Jesus as Lord of that Kingdom, the Sermon on the Mount as a key teaching on what that Kingdom looks like, and our role as ambassadors of that Kingdom.
2. This Kingdom of God is at odds with the world around us in ways that nominal Christianity often managed to hide, but nominal Christianity is fading.
3. This Kingdom of God goes beyond denominational boundaries. If Mennonites and Anabaptists were to disappear overnight, the Kingdom of God would go on. If we want to be relevant, we need to make this our mission.
4. We face new and different challenges as Christianity looks stranger and stranger to the world around us and the world around us looks stranger and stranger to us.
5. All of this is centrally important to what we, as Christians, should be about.

Am I alone in this? Are there others for whom this resonates?

[Ken]

Are we back to the default political conversation on MN? Can we stop?

Ken, I think you are basically saying that we have no valid concerns and cannot even identify who is Christian or who is a committed Christian and that if our faith is at odds with US law, that means there's something wrong with our faith.

I started this thread precisely because I think our faith is at odds with US law sometimes in ways that can cost us, we are used to being a dominant voice in America via nominal Christians who are politically powerful, and I want us to think about how we build the Kingdom of God under these circumstances. I'm guessing the whole premise of this is nonsense to you, but I think that means you cannot participate in this discussion, you can only distract from it with things you would rather discuss instead.

For instance, when I bring up wedding cake bakers and wedding photographers, you seem to be saying it serves them right if they won't work at gay weddings. Regardless, we have to figure out how we live under the changing circumstances. And our faith sometimes is at odds with U.S. law, that's why Mennonites were jailed for refusing to serve in the army, for instance. Some of their neighbors thought we deserved that if we didn't want to do our part. Mainstream society will often think we deserve what we get if we do not go along.

Similarly, I think that politics has become so dominant and religion so much weaker that people are less and less likely to understand a Christian world view at all, and are more likely to conflate it with political world views.

Regardless, I think our job as Christians is to build the Kingdom of God in a world that looks stranger and stranger to me, serving those around us. I would like to focus on ways to do that. I can't do that in a thread where we have to debate you at the same time.

No I am not saying that you have no valid religious concerns. I have never once said that. We live in a society with an incredibly diverse array of religious beliefs from conservative Muslims with strict dress and dietary rules, to conservative Jews with similar rules and concerns, to conservative Anabaptists with their own issues and concerns. I make no judgements about which are valid and which are not and generally consider them all valid and worthy of respect outside of some extreme practices that harm others like forced child marriages and female genital mutilation done for religious or cultural reasons. Or, for example, when Hindus import their caste system into the US in violation of US laws.

All I am pointing out is that we live in a diverse and secular society in which the separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution and in which all Americans are afforded equal protection under the law regardless of faith, race, gender, or sexual orientation.

I didn't bring up the wedding bakers, you did. The main thrust of this thread was whether LGBT persons or Christians are more advantaged or disadvantaged in this society under our laws, and under our social norms. I argued that Christians are by far the more powerful and privileged force in this country. In terms of representation in the halls of power. In terms of deference and privilege across the COMPLETE suite of laws that affect Americans in thousands of ways. And within society in general. Apparently you and most of the rest of the folks here disagree. And when I made the case others here pushed back and said that the Catholic Christian majority on the Supreme Court, or the 90% majority in the Senate that is Christian "doesn't count because they aren't REAL Christians." To which I responded "Really? How do you know? Do you not take them at their word? What criteria do you use and how many are REAL Christians by your criteria?"

I personally think there is tremendous space in this country for every religious group to pursue their own believes unhindered. More so than in pretty much any other nation. And when we sometimes wind up with conflicts between conservative Christians and the rights of other groups it is up to the courts to decide as they did in the case of gay marriage. Just like they also did recently on the issue of Covid regulation of churches. Not one church in this country is forced to conduct gay marriages. Not one congregation is forced to accept gay members. I frankly don't see the big problem. And yes, I do disagree with religious groups that seek to discriminate against LGBT people as was the case in the political movements to ban gay marriage which the Supreme Court settled in favor of gay marriage. And more recently in the cases with Christian adoption and foster care agencies that take public money and want to discriminate against LGBT people in foster care and adoption placements. Where the courts seem to be taking the opposite tack and tend to be accommodating the religious discrimination. In both cases I recognize that we are a national of laws and I am not always going to personally agree with every decision or ruling. That is what happens in a nation with competing and conflicting rights where the courts have to thread the needle and try to find the least restrictive solutions.

If you want to make every thread here about "woe is me, Christians are being persecuted for their beliefs here in the US" and all you want to hear is a chorus of agreement then just say so and I'll leave you alone to have that thread. But I was under the impression that you actually wanted an honest discussion of the topic.

And if, as you say, "I think our job as Christians is to build the Kingdom of God in a world that looks stranger and stranger to me, serving those around us. I would like to focus on ways to do that."

Then I would suggest the place to start is to stop worrying and obsessing about whether some of your fellow citizens in this enormous and diverse society are gay or gay married or have some particular privilege that annoys you. And get to work building the Kingdom of God that you would like to build.

[Bootstrap]

No I am not saying that you have no valid religious concerns. I have never once said that. We live in a society with an incredibly diverse array of religious beliefs from conservative Muslims with strict dress and dietary rules, to conservative Jews with similar rules and concerns, to conservative Anabaptists with their own issues and concerns. I make no judgements about which are valid and which are not and generally consider them all valid and worthy of respect outside of some extreme practices that harm others like forced child marriages and female genital mutilation done for religious or cultural reasons. Or, for example, when Hindus import their caste system into the US in violation of US laws.

All I am pointing out is that we live in a diverse and secular society in which the separation of church and state is enshrined in the constitution and in which all Americans are afforded equal protection under the law regardless of faith, race, gender, or sexual orientation.

OK, I agree with you so far.

I didn't bring up the wedding bakers, you did. The main thrust of this thread was whether LGBT persons or Christians are more advantaged or disadvantaged in this society under our laws, and under our social norms. I argued that Christians are by far the more powerful and privileged force in this country. In terms of representation in the halls of power. In terms of deference and privilege across the COMPLETE suite of laws that affect Americans in thousands of ways. And within society in general. Apparently you and most of the rest of the folks here disagree. And when I made the case others here pushed back and said that the Catholic Christian majority on the Supreme Court, or the 90% majority in the Senate that is Christian "doesn't count because they aren't REAL Christians." To which I responded "Really? How do you know? Do you not take them at their word? What criteria do you use and how many are REAL Christians by your criteria?"

I think this is a little forced. As a Christian, I will not say the Pledge of Allegiance, solemnly swear to anything on a contract or in court, work in ways that directly support the military, play a role in a gay wedding, etc. because of my understanding of Scripture. My children are now grown, but I can certainly understand people who would not send their children to public schools. We have protections for these things here that Christians in other countries do not - at least, for most of these things. I think that is because of our history as a nominally Christian country.

I don't need to judge individual Christians or denominations to say that. My faith may be as weird to them as theirs is to mine, but I am trying to live out committed Christianity as I and my faith community (my local church) understand it.

These days, my faith looks pretty weird even to a lot of members of my own denomination.

I did not start this thread to whine, but to discern.

If you want to make every thread here about "woe is me, Christians are being persecuted for their beliefs here in the US" and all you want to hear is a chorus of agreement then just say so and I'll leave you alone to have that thread. But I was under the impression that you actually wanted an honest discussion of the topic.

Where have I said anything even remotely like that? I am very much pushing back against that perspective - especially when it means allying ourselves with political powers in hopes of using political control to maintain power. I think that tends to pollute our faith and our witness. Sometimes it seems to make political narratives dominate our thinking, talking more about political figures and our fears than we talk about the Kingdom of God or Jesus.

This is precisely the corner I think the debate has forced the thread into. This debate is about a different topic. I would love to see that stop so we can discuss the topic I keep saying I want to talk about. You quote it below.

And if, as you say, "I think our job as Christians is to build the Kingdom of God in a world that looks stranger and stranger to me, serving those around us. I would like to focus on ways to do that."

Then I would suggest the place to start is to stop worrying and obsessing about whether some of your fellow citizens in this enormous and diverse society are gay or gay married or have some particular privilege that annoys you. And get to work building the Kingdom of God that you would like to build.

Yes, that's more or less my premise for the thread. Could we please focus on ways to do that?

To state the obvious, I don't think we are doing a great job of this.

I think our job as Christians is to build the Kingdom of God in a world that looks stranger and stranger to me, serving those around us. I would like to focus on ways to do that.

So how do we go about doing that? What does the New Testament teach us, written in a time where Christians were very much in the minority? What do we learn about Christians in various settings in other times and places?

[Sudsy]

When I started this thread, I started it under these assumptions:

1. There really is such a thing as committed discipleship that is focused on promoting the Kingdom of God, Jesus as Lord of that Kingdom, the Sermon on the Mount as a key teaching on what that Kingdom looks like, and our role as ambassadors of that Kingdom.
2. This Kingdom of God is at odds with the world around us in ways that nominal Christianity often managed to hide, but nominal Christianity is fading.
3. This Kingdom of God goes beyond denominational boundaries. If Mennonites and Anabaptists were to disappear overnight, the Kingdom of God would go on. If we want to be relevant, we need to make this our mission.
4. We face new and different challenges as Christianity looks stranger and stranger to the world around us and the world around us looks stranger and stranger to us.
5. All of this is centrally important to what we, as Christians, should be about.

Am I alone in this? Are there others for whom this resonates?

Yes, for me it does.

If I understand what is meant by 'nominal Christianity' it is a religion that people accept as the Christian belief and practise that one agrees to believe but it has no life transforming, on-going relationship with God. I think today younger people are less in favor of tradition than ever before and to stick with something that they don't experience as a plus to their lives is just a waste of time. And there is not the same belief in hell that there was years ago. Scare tactics in evangelism doesn't work like it did years ago. So, why waste your Sunday mornings with this tradition.

Personally, I think we do need a fresh look at what is attractive in our practises that would draw people to Christ. The fruit of the Holy Spirit being evident in our lives in such a way that makes an impact. It is not about going 'seeker friendly', if that means attracting people by their fleshly appetites either. But rather living a Kingdom life of righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. Separation from the world is not the same as isolation.

For Anabaptists the mindset that true Christians will be a 'little flock', must change. Jesus also said the fields are ripe unto harvest but the laborers are few. Whenever we regard the Great Commission to not involve each one of us, then we are not living a Kingdom way of life.

Anyway, I'm all for more serious talk about what Kingdom life is about as being ambassadors.

[Ken]

I guess all I am saying is that in a enormous and diverse society I think a little more "live and let live" is called for on all sides.

For example, I'm not aware that LGBT activists are out protesting against or harassing the Amish or conservative Muslims or Hasidic Jews because they don't perform gay marriages or allow gay bishops or imams. Because those groups don't bother LGBT people or meddle in their affairs. Religious communities have tremendous space and freedom to carve out their own spaces and follow their own faiths whether it is in rural Ohio or urban Brooklyn.

Where conflicts arise it is almost always when one group decides to step outside its lane and start meddling with the rights or business of others.

We are seeing waves of that right now across the country. Not necessarily with Anabaptists, but other mainstream evangelical groups that are pushing for a wave of new anti-trans legislation mostly across the south. And who are pushing to regulate how history and racism are taught in the schools with all the anti critical race theory and anti 1619 stuff that is popping up. Even out here in my corner of the world we have school board meetings completely melting down, protestors getting arrested, vandalism happening, and huge division over curriculum issues that aren't even real (they are protesting stuff that isn't even being taught). This is the next school board over: https://lacamasmagazine.com/2021/05/pro ... lding.html It is a lot of the same conservative evangelical Christians who were out last fall to protest accommodations for trans students and sex ed curriculum. Now they have moved on to masks and equity and critical race theory.

I'm not tying you to this sort of movement. I don't think they represent your thinking at all. I'm merely using them as an example of the opposite of tolerance and "live and let live" in our society and seeking conflict and triumphalism over reconciliation. And this conflict over curriculum and masks is driving a huge wedge into our little community unnecessarily.

Church building and community building shouldn't be a zero sum game where we must have conflicts that generate winners and losers. I don't think that is the Christian way at all.

[ohio jones]

When I started this thread, I started it under these assumptions:

1. There really is such a thing as committed discipleship that is focused on promoting the Kingdom of God, Jesus as Lord of that Kingdom, the Sermon on the Mount as a key teaching on what that Kingdom looks like, and our role as ambassadors of that Kingdom.
2. This Kingdom of God is at odds with the world around us in ways that nominal Christianity often managed to hide, but nominal Christianity is fading.
3. This Kingdom of God goes beyond denominational boundaries. If Mennonites and Anabaptists were to disappear overnight, the Kingdom of God would go on. If we want to be relevant, we need to make this our mission.
4. We face new and different challenges as Christianity looks stranger and stranger to the world around us and the world around us looks stranger and stranger to us.
5. All of this is centrally important to what we, as Christians, should be about.

Am I alone in this? Are there others for whom this resonates?

I would make just one change:

2. The Kingdom of God is at odds with nominal Christianity in ways that nominal Christianity often managed to hide, but nominal Christianity is fading, except on MennoNet of all places.

[Josh]

When I started this thread, I started it under these assumptions:

1. There really is such a thing as committed discipleship that is focused on promoting the Kingdom of God, Jesus as Lord of that Kingdom, the Sermon on the Mount as a key teaching on what that Kingdom looks like, and our role as ambassadors of that Kingdom.
2. This Kingdom of God is at odds with the world around us in ways that nominal Christianity often managed to hide, but nominal Christianity is fading.
3. This Kingdom of God goes beyond denominational boundaries. If Mennonites and Anabaptists were to disappear overnight, the Kingdom of God would go on. If we want to be relevant, we need to make this our mission.
4. We face new and different challenges as Christianity looks stranger and stranger to the world around us and the world around us looks stranger and stranger to us.
5. All of this is centrally important to what we, as Christians, should be about.

Am I alone in this? Are there others for whom this resonates?

No, this is exactly my viewpoint. Maybe you should put this post in its own thread.

We have a number of frequent posters, both left and right wing, who don’t hold or understand the view above. They feel that instead of#4, they should fight for the dominant domestic culture to somehow facility good morals and values.

[Bootstrap]

I guess all I am saying is that in a enormous and diverse society I think a little more "live and let live" is called for on all sides.

For example, I'm not aware that LGBT activists are out protesting against or harassing the Amish or conservative Muslims or Hasidic Jews because they don't perform gay marriages or allow gay bishops or imams. Because those groups don't bother LGBT people or meddle in their affairs. Religious communities have tremendous space and freedom to carve out their own spaces and follow their own faiths whether it is in rural Ohio or urban Brooklyn.

Where conflicts arise it is almost always when one group decides to step outside its lane and start meddling with the rights or business of others.

I think this is a good summary of what Caesar should be striving for in its Romans 13 authority. You seem to be looking at this from Caesar's perspective - I don't think I get to tell Caesar what to do, and Caesar does not always get this right. I don't think the Jews in Germany were doing anything wrong, I don't think the cake baker in Colorado was doing anything wrong, I think the LGBT activists could have chosen a different cake baker for their wedding but targeted this one, perhaps because they wanted to prompt legal action. (And no, please don't debate this point, I realize you may see this differently, I just want you to know what my perspective is for context.) Just as some Christians want to tell LGBT people what to do, some LGBT activists really want to take on traditional Christianity. Perhaps because of the way they feel they have been treated in the past.

But I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Kingdom of God. Our motto is not "live and let live", but we do have the ministry of reconciliation. When Jesus reached out to the Samaritan woman or the adulteress or to prostitutes, he did not condemn them, he loved them, he did not call on Caesar to kill the woman caught in adultery, he shielded her from the self-righteous wrath of the mob. That doesn't mean Jesus thought that adultery, prostitution, etc. are equally good lifestyles, it means this is the way Jesus taught us to relate to a sinful world.

When I look at the testimony of Christian martyrs and Christians who have faced persecution or face it today, they look very different to me than the Christians who have persecution complexes in modern America, sometimes calling for loyalty to worldly political factions as our protectors. Theirs is a different witness, putting their faith in quite different things. If persecution does come, we had better prepare by learning from them. If persecution does not come, learning from them will still call us back to a pure faith that we have strayed from.

I'm not sure "live and let live" is the right slogan here. I think "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is more appropriate.

[Ken]

But I'm looking at this from the perspective of the Kingdom of God. Our motto is not "live and let live", but we do have the ministry of reconciliation. When Jesus reached out to the Samaritan woman or the adulteress or to prostitutes, he did not condemn them, he loved them, he did not call on Caesar to kill the woman caught in adultery, he shielded her from the self-righteous wrath of the mob. That doesn't mean Jesus thought that adultery, prostitution, etc. are equally good lifestyles, it means this is the way Jesus taught us to relate to a sinful world.

When I look at the testimony of Christian martyrs and Christians who have faced persecution or face it today, they look very different to me than the Christians who have persecution complexes in modern America, sometimes calling for loyalty to worldly political factions as our protectors. Theirs is a different witness, putting their faith in quite different things. If persecution does come, we had better prepare by learning from them. If persecution does not come, learning from them will still call us back to a pure faith that we have strayed from.

I'm not sure "live and let live" is the right slogan here. I think "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is more appropriate.

This is all well and good. And I largely agree. However your approach of "love and be a witness to the love of Christ in order to reveal God's reconciling and transforming love" is not the reality of what is happening in this country right now.

My answer will be long. Because it isn't a simple one.

We are truly in the middle of a culture war in this country. And "war" is the correct term. The wedding cake thing was just one tiny skirmish. The reality is that there are thousands of battles happening near daily across the country and much of it is one-sided attacks coming from conservative evangelical groups who might well be "nominal Christians" in your lexicon, or "Christian Nationalists" to use another term. And their approach is not your approach. I fully understand that. But they are whom I am talking about when I say "live and let live" You are asking one side to be more tolerant when you wrote "I think the LGBT activists could have chosen a different cake baker for their wedding" and I agree. I am simply suggesting that both sides be more tolerant. That is what I mean by live and let live. It is naïve and unrealistic on your part to ask one side to step back and accommodate or be tolerant of religious differences and beliefs without asking the other side to similarly step back with the public attacks and culture war. Put another way, if you want a fight you are likely to get a fight. Whether we are talking about LGBT rights or Israeli/Palestinian conflicts or anything else. And people like your cake bakers are going to be casualties just like children in Gaza. Although it is arguable the extent to which they were combatants vs innocent victims.

So what am I actually talking about? Here in my neck of the woods which is a purple suburb of a blue city in a blue state we have very organized conservative evangelical culture warriors who actually bounce from issue to issue looking for one that gains traction. They show up in mass at school board meetings and city council/county commission meetings and political town halls to loudly advocate for their positions and shout down anyone who disagrees. Over the past year the same large group of people who tend to be affiliated with several large conservative evangelical churches have showed up in public to loudly protest mask mandates, Covid vaccination, sex ed curriculum in the public schools, virtual learning, equity curriculum based on race, religion, gender, and sexual orientation, transgender bathroom laws, and most recently critical race theory which isn't even a thing that is taught in schools. It always turns into a circus with Trump flags and Blue Lives Matter flags and people sitting in pickup trucks with their guns and tactical gear. We have facebook groups of conservative evangelical parents devoting themselves to tracking down specific teachers (based on rumors) who they think too aggressively teaching about social justice or systemic racism or equity for LGBT and trans students and they are seeking to get those teachers disciplined or fired. If this is happening here in a purple suburb of a blue state then I can't imagine what it is like in places like Alabama or rural Arkansas. The same exact people are seeking to primary our GOP Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler because she had the temerity to vote her conscience on the Trump impeachment vote after January 6th

So yes, "love and be a witness to the love of Christ" is an ideal sentiment. But it not the lived reality or experience of people who come face to face with these Christian culture warriors.

Now I have been repeatedly accused on this forum (mostly by one person) of seeking to promote and affirm "homosexual lifestyles" and promote unnatural and immoral fornication and so forth. But nothing could be further from the truth. It really isn't about the gay sex.

I am a HS teacher which is my second career. I got into teaching at age 43 after a first career as a marine fisheries scientist. Over the 15 years that I have taught HS science I have averaged about 150 students per year so I have had about 2,225 students in my classroom over the years. In Texas my classes were about 1/3 White, 1/3 Black and 1/3 Hispanic. Here in WA they are more White and Asian with only a scattering of Black and Hispanic students. I have had dozens and dozens of gay students over the years, some who were openly gay in HS (in both TX and WA) and some who did not come out as gay until later in college or beyond. Very few trans kids (less than I could count on one hand) for whom things like pronouns and names were an issue. I had a kid here in WA who when his father found out he was gay he was severely beaten and thrown out of the house and spent the rest of his senior year couch surfing at friends houses and survived on the free school lunches and breakfasts. I have had students in TX who were children of gay parents. I have had plenty of foster kids and abused kids. The most extreme of which was one of those cases in the news where crazed fundamentalist parents kept their kids locked up and starving in the house for years until neighbors and social services intervened. That was here in WA. Another kid was the parent of two violent meth heads who were in and out of prison until there was some violent clash with law enforcement and the father was gunned down and the mother is somewhere on the lam. He was living with his 22 year old sister in her tiny apartment with all types of financial difficulties and I struggled mightily to get him across the finish line with his HS degree. My most brilliant student in 15 years was a Hispanic girl back in TX who got into Stanford to study premed until her parents were arrested and deported for being undocumented. She had to give up Stanford to stay in Waco and raise her younger siblings where she worked full time as a waitress while going to community college. She eventually went on to Texas A&M and became a pediatric oncologist. I probably taught her nothing about science. She came to class every day already having read and mastered the material. Just a brilliant girl.

So how does "affirming homosexual fornication" come up in my classroom? It doesn't ever. I seek to find something to affirm and support in all of my students. Talents, interests, beliefs, and so forth. With some kids it is easier to find something to affirm than with others. And sometimes you have to remind yourself that every kid is someone's child who probably loves them. The most difficult kids are usually rural white kids (not Black or Hispanic kids) who come in with a lot of inherited resentment and rage. The most difficult kid I have had in 15 years of teaching was a rural white kid who was the son of a local cop who was in the news for getting fired for violently abusing citizens during traffic stops. He was a big athlete and being recruited D1 schools to play baseball. In my chemistry class he violently attacked a black kid unprovoked and the fight was so violent that they smashed through the plexiglass shield of my fume hood until the security officers could come break it up. He was arrested and expelled and we never saw him again.

In any event, I seek to find things to affirm and support in all of my students. Their talents and interests. And it is never about whether they are gay or straight. And their sexual lifestyle is frankly not relevant to science class whether they are all-American straight kids or very out and gay. I am never interested in who my straight students are dating or sleeping with. And I'm not interested in who my gay students are dating or sleeping with either. And if the topic ever comes up in science class (and it rarely ever would) I would tell my gay students EXACTLY the same thing that I would tell my straight students. Namely: "Keep your pants zipped, you are too young to be fooling around like that. But if you aren't going to listen to me then at least be safe in whatever you do and don't EVER let anyone force you or talk you into anything that you aren't comfortable with." And for the most part that is actually what they do. Rates of teen premarital sex, venereal disease, and teen pregnancy are all FAR lower today than they were two generations ago when I was in HS in the 1980s. And it isn't the gay kids who are getting pregnant and having abortions (and rarely the straight kids either).

What I object to is world in which any of my students goes out into the world and gets persecuted, or fired, or beaten, or attacked, or denied housing, or discriminated against simply because of who they are. Whether it is because of their faith, their race, their ethnicity, their gender, or their sexual orientation.

Is that not the Christian path of love?

[Josh]

Ken,

Can you try to stay on track with an Anabaptist perspective?

We aren’t really that concerned with what the right wing or left wing of the Presbyterians or Baptists or Methodists or non-denoms are doing. And you seem to keep confusing the churches and groups people like myself and Boot are a part of, with the right wing politically involved evangelical groups.

I agree there’s a culture war, but I disagree with you when you say we will be left alone - we absolutely are not being left alone and eventually they’ll be coming for us. Conservative Christians who don’t affirm worldly lifestyles are not going to be well liked on the left.