History reveals how Authoritarianism usually develops and what one can do if facing it?

[Jazman]

It’s amazing how die-hard leftists are still griping about the places they didn’t win like Spain and Chile and endlessly whining about the “dictators” there.

I have yet to see any of y’all put forth the same dedication to the atrocities that happened under Stalin, Lenin, and Mao, to name a few, not to mentioned the complete disaster of Poland, Hungary and other countries under communism. I cannot fathom why anyone would think adding Spain to the list would somehow be better.

Well, I guess we should look at what the (Second) Republic, pre-Franco, actually was. Was it a communist regime like those real communists places you list (nobody here would defend those, including me... so just because I/we don't mention them the way you want us to, somehow means we're 'soft' on them? Feels a bit ad hominem... rather than addressing the substance of this discussion of authoritarianism / Franco, etc)
If it wasn't and wasn't given much if any time to actually develop into whatever (maybe communist?), then your whole, "they Were communist and therefore needed to be destroyed" is moot...

[Josh]

It’s amazing how die-hard leftists are still griping about the places they didn’t win like Spain and Chile and endlessly whining about the “dictators” there.

I have yet to see any of y’all put forth the same dedication to the atrocities that happened under Stalin, Lenin, and Mao, to name a few, not to mentioned the complete disaster of Poland, Hungary and other countries under communism. I cannot fathom why anyone would think adding Spain to the list would somehow be better.

Well, I guess we should look at what the (Second) Republic, pre-Franco, actually was. Was it a communist regime like those real communists places you list (nobody here would defend those, including me... so just because I/we don't mention them the way you want us to, somehow means we're 'soft' on them? Feels a bit ad hominem... rather than addressing the substance of this discussion of authoritarianism / Franco, etc)
If it wasn't and wasn't given much if any time to actually develop into whatever (maybe communist?), then your whole, "they Were communist and therefore needed to be destroyed" is moot...

Can you point to any place that the Communists won that didn't turn into a state like Vietnam, North Korea, P.R. China, The U.S.S.R, the G.D.R., etc.?

[Bootstrap]

I don't think authoritarianism is about political ideology. I am playing a lot with GPT4 these days, I thought I would ask it to define authoritarianism. This description seems accurate to me:

Authoritarianism refers to a system of governance or leadership in which power is concentrated in the hands of a single authority or a small elite, often at the expense of individual rights and liberties. It is characterized by limited political pluralism, a lack of political competition, constrained civil liberties, and often employs state control over many aspects of life, including the media, education, and the economy.

Here are some key points to consider regarding authoritarianism:

1. **Concentration of Power:** One of the defining features of authoritarian regimes is the centralization of political power, often in the hands of a single leader or a small elite group.

2. **Limited Political Freedoms:** Political opposition is often restricted or outright banned in authoritarian systems. Political parties, if they exist, typically serve as instruments of the ruling authority rather than as genuine competitors.

3. **Control Over Information:** Authoritarian regimes frequently exercise control over the media and other means of communication to suppress dissent, propagate the official narrative, and maintain a hold over the public.

4. **Weak Rule of Law:** While laws exist, they might be applied arbitrarily. Legal systems under authoritarian rule are often tools for the regime to maintain control rather than protect individual rights.

5. **Repression:** Dissent is not tolerated in authoritarian systems. Critics, activists, or perceived enemies of the state may face harassment, imprisonment, torture, or even execution.

6. **Ideological Justification:** Many authoritarian regimes rely on an ideology (whether religious, political, or cultural) to justify their rule and suppress opposition.

7. **Paternalistic Approach:** Authoritarian leaders often position themselves as protectors or saviors of the nation, arguing that strong, centralized control is necessary to maintain order, protect the people, or achieve national greatness.

8. **Public Support:** It's important to note that not all those living under authoritarian regimes necessarily oppose them. In some cases, a segment of the population might support or tolerate authoritarianism because of perceived benefits such as stability, economic growth, or protection against perceived threats.

9. **External Factors:** External pressures, whether they come from foreign governments, international organizations, or global economic forces, can influence the dynamics of authoritarian rule. Sometimes they can bolster it, while other times they can undermine it.

10. **Rise in the 21st Century:** The early 21st century witnessed a noticeable rise in authoritarian tendencies in various parts of the world, as well as a decline in liberal democracies. Factors contributing to this trend include economic instability, fears over terrorism, nationalist movements, and the spread of misinformation through digital media.

It's essential to differentiate between different types of authoritarian systems, as they can vary significantly in terms of governance, policies, and public support. For example, theocratic regimes, military juntas, absolute monarchies, and single-party states can all be considered authoritarian, but they operate and justify their rule differently.

[Bootstrap]

I asked GPT4 to list the major authoritarian leaders of the 20th century, together with their political ideology, worst-first. Here's the list it gave me.

Communists, fascists, nationalists, right-wing military juntas ... the ideologies vary, but these are all authoritarian.

Here's the list of major authoritarian leaders of the 20th century, incorporating their ideological direction:

1. **Joseph Stalin (Soviet Union, Communist)**: Stalin's leadership of the USSR from the mid-1920s until his death in 1953 is marked by mass purges, forced labor camps (Gulags), forced famines (most notably the Holodomor in Ukraine), and extensive political repression. Estimates of deaths attributable to his regime range from tens of millions.

2. **Mao Zedong (China, Communist)**: Chairman Mao, the founder of the People's Republic of China, was responsible for policies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, which led to the deaths of millions through famine, persecution, and mass executions.

3. **Adolf Hitler (Germany, National Socialist/Fascist)**: Hitler's leadership of Nazi Germany led to the genocide of six million Jews in the Holocaust, along with millions of other victims, including Romani people, Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, disabled individuals, homosexuals, and other groups persecuted by the Nazis. The total death toll from his aggressive policies, including World War II, is in the tens of millions.

4. **Pol Pot (Cambodia, Communist)**: As the leader of the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot was responsible for the Cambodian genocide where nearly a quarter of the country's population died from execution, forced labor, or starvation.

5. **Kim Il-sung (North Korea, Communist/Juche)**: The founder of North Korea, Kim Il-sung established a totalitarian regime marked by purges, mass incarcerations, and widespread human rights abuses.

6. **Saddam Hussein (Iraq, Ba'athist/Arab Nationalist)**: Hussein's leadership was marked by widespread human rights abuses, including the use of chemical weapons on Kurdish populations, mass executions, and aggressive wars against neighboring countries.

7. **Benito Mussolini (Italy, Fascist)**: The founder of Fascism, Mussolini led Italy with an iron grip, suppressing political opponents and leading the country into multiple wars.

8. **Hideki Tojo (Japan, Militarist/Nationalist)**: As Prime Minister during much of World War II, Tojo was responsible for many of Japan's wartime policies, including aggressive expansionism and associated war crimes.

9. **Francisco Franco (Spain, Fascist/Nationalist)**: Franco's rule over Spain was marked by repression of political opposition, censorship, and thousands of executions.

10. **Augusto Pinochet (Chile, Right-wing/Military Junta)**: After a military coup in 1973, Pinochet's regime was known for widespread torture, execution, and the disappearance of political opponents.

The ideological labels used here are broad strokes, and it's worth noting that the details and nuances of each ideology can vary significantly depending on the leader, time, and place.

[Bootstrap]

George Orwell's Animal Farm is well worth reading.

It's an allegory. There's a farm that was run by an incompetent and cruel farmer who often gets drunk and forgets to feed the animals. The animals revolt against the oppression of their human overlords. The pigs promise everything the animals could possibly want, but once they get a taste for power, that power is what the pigs really crave. At the end of the book, the animals look at the pigs and the humans and realize what has happened:

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

The conclusion is that Communist authoritarianism is no different than the Tsarist authoritarianism it revolted against. No matter what ideals were spouted along the way. In this allegory, humans represent the old regime, symbolizing the bourgeoisie and the Tsarist autocracy in Russia before the Revolution. Mr. Jones represents the Tsar.

The pigs symbolize the communist leadership of the Soviet Union, particularly Joseph Stalin and his inner circle. As the story progresses, the pigs increasingly adopt the habits and attitudes of the humans they initially opposed, reflecting the corruption and betrayal of revolutionary ideals by the Soviet leadership.

If you look at authoritarian regimes across time and place, I think that's what you see. There was no real difference between authoritarianism in left-wing vs. right-wing authoritarian regimes in Latin America. Authoritarians insist they need that power so that they can defend you against "them", but that's not what they do with the power once you give it to them.

[Szdfan]

Josh is presenting a false choice here while also minimizing the atrocities of the Pinochet and Franco regimes.

Franco and Pinochet weren’t “dictators" with air quotes. They were actual authoritarian dictators who imprisoned and murdered their political opponents. The fact that they opposed Communism doesn't change these historical facts.

Do we really have to choose between murderous authoritarian regimes? Are Franco and Pinochet any less problematic because Stalin also existed? Or can we say that authoritarian regimes that arrest and execute political opponents are bad regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum?

Considering also how often Josh complains about US interference, I'm puzzled that he's giving a pass to the CIA sponsored coup that overthrew Salvador Allende. Is disappearing and throwing your political opponents out of airplanes OK if they are Communists?

Does political ideology justity atrocities?

[Josh]

I asked GPT4 to list the major authoritarian leaders of the 20th century, together with their political ideology, worst-first. Here's the list it gave me.

Communists, fascists, nationalists, right-wing military juntas ... the ideologies vary, but these are all authoritarian.

Here's the list of major authoritarian leaders of the 20th century, incorporating their ideological direction:

1. **Joseph Stalin (Soviet Union, Communist)**: Stalin's leadership of the USSR from the mid-1920s until his death in 1953 is marked by mass purges, forced labor camps (Gulags), forced famines (most notably the Holodomor in Ukraine), and extensive political repression. Estimates of deaths attributable to his regime range from tens of millions.

2. **Mao Zedong (China, Communist)**: Chairman Mao, the founder of the People's Republic of China, was responsible for policies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, which led to the deaths of millions through famine, persecution, and mass executions.

3. **Adolf Hitler (Germany, National Socialist/Fascist)**: Hitler's leadership of Nazi Germany led to the genocide of six million Jews in the Holocaust, along with millions of other victims, including Romani people, Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, disabled individuals, homosexuals, and other groups persecuted by the Nazis. The total death toll from his aggressive policies, including World War II, is in the tens of millions.

4. **Pol Pot (Cambodia, Communist)**: As the leader of the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot was responsible for the Cambodian genocide where nearly a quarter of the country's population died from execution, forced labor, or starvation.

5. **Kim Il-sung (North Korea, Communist/Juche)**: The founder of North Korea, Kim Il-sung established a totalitarian regime marked by purges, mass incarcerations, and widespread human rights abuses.

6. **Saddam Hussein (Iraq, Ba'athist/Arab Nationalist)**: Hussein's leadership was marked by widespread human rights abuses, including the use of chemical weapons on Kurdish populations, mass executions, and aggressive wars against neighboring countries.

7. **Benito Mussolini (Italy, Fascist)**: The founder of Fascism, Mussolini led Italy with an iron grip, suppressing political opponents and leading the country into multiple wars.

8. **Hideki Tojo (Japan, Militarist/Nationalist)**: As Prime Minister during much of World War II, Tojo was responsible for many of Japan's wartime policies, including aggressive expansionism and associated war crimes.

9. **Francisco Franco (Spain, Fascist/Nationalist)**: Franco's rule over Spain was marked by repression of political opposition, censorship, and thousands of executions.

10. **Augusto Pinochet (Chile, Right-wing/Military Junta)**: After a military coup in 1973, Pinochet's regime was known for widespread torture, execution, and the disappearance of political opponents.

The ideological labels used here are broad strokes, and it's worth noting that the details and nuances of each ideology can vary significantly depending on the leader, time, and place.

“People that are the American Empire’s enemies are authoritarians”

[Josh]

Josh is presenting a false choice here while also minimizing the atrocities of the Pinochet and Franco regimes.

Franco and Pinochet weren’t “dictators" with air quotes. They were actual authoritarian dictators who imprisoned and murdered their political opponents. The fact that they opposed Communism doesn't change these historical facts.

Do we really have to choose between murderous authoritarian regimes? Are Franco and Pinochet any less problematic because Stalin also existed? Or can we say that authoritarian regimes that arrest and execute political opponents are bad regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum?

Considering also how often Josh complains about US interference, I'm puzzled that he's giving a pass to the CIA sponsored coup that overthrew Salvador Allende. Is disappearing and throwing your political opponents out of airplanes OK if they are Communists?

Does political ideology justity atrocities?

That is how warfare and Empire are conducted.

I see no difference between young boys drafted into the military dying en masse in the trenches versus a few politicians getting one way helicopter rides. Actually, I’d say the latter is far preferable. Nobody has to be a politician, but conscripts get no choice but to go fight and get killed.

Ultimately, no, Christians shouldn’t be involved in the machinations of the empire.

[Bootstrap]

“People that are the American Empire’s enemies are authoritarians”

First off, a request: I don't think it's helpful when you make things up, pretend that I said them even though you know or should know that I do not believe them, and mock me for your own words. And I think that's against board guidelines:

• Do not use extreme sarcasm to minimize another's comments or opinions.
• Do not take another's statement and distort it to an extreme.

Now let me answer the implied question: are you asking if America has allied itself with authoritarians? Certainly - here's a list. But often, our authoritarian allies have not been the mass murderers like Hitler or Stalin - most of these are a level down from that:

The United States, in pursuit of its strategic and geopolitical interests, especially during the Cold War era, has at times allied with or supported authoritarian regimes. Here's a list of some notable authoritarian governments or leaders that the U.S. has supported, either militarily, financially, or diplomatically:

1. **Saudi Arabia**: The monarchy in Saudi Arabia has had longstanding economic and strategic ties with the U.S., primarily due to oil interests and regional geopolitics.

2. **Iran (under the Shah)**: The U.S. supported Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, particularly after the 1953 coup, which was backed by the CIA and the British intelligence service. The Shah's rule was marked by modernization, but also by political repression.

3. **Egypt (under various leaders)**: Especially during the presidencies of Anwar Sadat and Hosni Mubarak, the U.S. provided significant aid to Egypt, a key ally in the Middle East peace process.

4. **Iraq (under Saddam Hussein)**: While the U.S. relationship with Saddam was complex, there was tacit support during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.

5. **Chile (under Pinochet)**: After a 1973 coup that ousted democratically elected President Salvador Allende, the U.S. supported Augusto Pinochet's military dictatorship, which was marked by significant human rights abuses.

6. **Nicaragua (under Somoza)**: The Somoza family dictatorship received U.S. support until the late 1970s, when the Sandinistas led a revolution.

7. **Indonesia (under Suharto)**: After coming to power in the mid-1960s, Suharto's New Order regime received military and economic support from the U.S.

8. **Philippines (under Marcos)**: Ferdinand Marcos, who imposed martial law and ruled the Philippines for over two decades, was a recipient of U.S. support.

9. **South Korea (under various military rulers)**: During the Cold War, the U.S. supported successive military regimes in South Korea, seeing the country as a bulwark against communism.

10. **Zaire (now Democratic Republic of the Congo) under Mobutu**: Mobutu Sese Seko's dictatorship received considerable U.S. aid due to his anti-communist stance.

11. **El Salvador (during its civil war)**: The U.S. backed the Salvadoran government in the 1980s against leftist guerrillas, despite concerns over human rights abuses.

12. **Guatemala (under various leaders)**: Over several decades, the U.S. has supported or been involved in backing right-wing governments and military juntas in Guatemala, especially during periods of internal conflict.

It's important to note that U.S. support for these regimes often arose from complex geopolitical considerations, such as containment of communism during the Cold War, regional stability, or economic interests. Many of these relationships have been sources of controversy and criticism, given the human rights records of the supported regimes.

[ken_sylvania]

Now let me answer the implied question: are you asking if America has allied itself with authoritarians? Certainly - here's a list. But often, our authoritarian allies have not been the mass murderers like Hitler or Stalin - most of these are a level down from that:

That's an accurate statement in the sense that most authoritarian rulers aren't mass murders quite to the degree that Hitler and Stalin were. However US supported both Stalin and Pol Pot so I don't think that your implication that the US only supports garden variety dicatators is accurate.