The danger of “LGBT” teachers.

[Ken]

So, do you think that much of this transsexual behavior is adolescents simply rebelling against societal norms and expectations? Just like many of the hippies became stockbrokers? That is fine, but if you add in the “treatment “ that is on offer, it will be more than changing clothes to get back. Many of these medical and surgical treatments have irreversible consequences.

I think some of it is just the latest version of teen rebellion against parents and society and some are truly gender dysphoric. I think those who are truly gender dysphoric probably know it early on and kids who are coming to it in their teen years are more likely just messing around and experimenting with different personas and sexualities. What is the ratio? I wouldn't venture a guess. But I expect the recent growth is more the latter.

Are there some who might go down the path and later regret it? Sure. But when it comes to minors, what I have observed is the following:

• It is a minority of LGBT or trans kids who avail the themselves of medical solutions. Despite what one might think, it is quite expensive and difficult to navigate our medical system to get any sort of counseling and treatment for anything. My wife is a senior doctor in an HMO with presumably a lot of connections and we struggled greatly to get any sort of counseling for our daughter a few years ago when she was going through severe depression. There are big wait lists for this kind of thing. So it's not exactly like hopping over to Walgreens. Consequently, a whole lot of teens, especially girls, are just messing around with identities, names, pronouns, etc. and not actually doing any medical interventions. Because it isn't actually easy to get.
• Of those minority of self-identified trans teens who avail themselves of medical solutions (hormones, etc.) it is a smaller minority who avail themselves of surgical solutions. A very small minority for genital surgery. The numbers are out there and they are tiny.
• Finally, of those who avail themselves of medical or surgical solutions, the percentage who come to regret it is a tiny minority. Do they exist? Sure. They are the ones who make the news. But they are a small minority and not representative of the whole.

In short, when it comes to trans teens, we are really talking about a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority who avail themselves of irreversible surgical solutions and come to regret it. What are the actual numbers? I'm not interested enough to dive deep into what data exists to make an estimate. But it is small.

At the same time, we are also a country that values freedom, medical autonomy, and also defers to parents and families. We let people by the tens of thousands refuse to take vaccines and instead follow quack treatments like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine and as a result, kill themselves. Tens of thousands of people. Some in my own extended family. We let people who are mentally unstable have unlimited access to firearms and kill themselves. Tens of thousands more people. We let people make choices all the time that are not in their best interests. We do this because we value personal autonomy and freedom over taking away that freedom and overruling personal choice. Especially when it comes to personal medical decisions. And when it comes to personal medical decisions for teens, we normally defer to parents rather than the heavy hand of the state.

Is this an area where there is growing medical evidence and data? Yes. Should there be more data? Yes. Could medical best practices be adjusted and changed over time? Sure. But it should be the medical field not unformed legislators responding to ginned up political hysteria who should be making those adjustments. That is why we have medical boards and so forth. That seems to be what is happening in the UK. Which I'm fine with if it is evidence-based medicine not politics.

So are there some teens who are at risk of making irreversible medical decisions that they will come to regret? I'm sure there are. But there are millions of teens in this country who are at risk of making all manner of irreversible decisions that they will come to regret. And many who face all manner of bad outcomes through no choice of their own. In the end, how does this particular issue rank in terms of actual risk to American teens? Here's a few numbers I quickly googled up. You tell me which are the biggest risks facing American youth. And which ones are worth overruling person freedom, autonomy, and parental rights and wielding the heavy hand of the state to address.

[Judas Maccabeus]

So, do you think that much of this transsexual behavior is adolescents simply rebelling against societal norms and expectations? Just like many of the hippies became stockbrokers? That is fine, but if you add in the “treatment “ that is on offer, it will be more than changing clothes to get back. Many of these medical and surgical treatments have irreversible consequences.

I think some of it is just the latest version of teen rebellion against parents and society and some are truly gender dysphoric. I think those who are truly gender dysphoric probably know it early on and kids who are coming to it in their teen years are more likely just messing around and experimenting with different personas and sexualities. What is the ratio? I wouldn't venture a guess. But I expect the recent growth is more the latter.

Are there some who might go down the path and later regret it? Sure. But when it comes to minors, what I have observed is the following:

• It is a minority of LGBT or trans kids who avail the themselves of medical solutions. Despite what one might think, it is quite expensive and difficult to navigate our medical system to get any sort of counseling and treatment for anything. My wife is a senior doctor in an HMO with presumably a lot of connections and we struggled greatly to get any sort of counseling for our daughter a few years ago when she was going through severe depression. There are big wait lists for this kind of thing. So it's not exactly like hopping over to Walgreens. Consequently, a whole lot of teens, especially girls, are just messing around with identities, names, pronouns, etc. and not actually doing any medical interventions. Because it isn't actually easy to get.
• Of those minority of self-identified trans teens who avail themselves of medical solutions (hormones, etc.) it is a smaller minority who avail themselves of surgical solutions. A very small minority for genital surgery. The numbers are out there and they are tiny.
• Finally, of those who avail themselves of medical or surgical solutions, the percentage who come to regret it is a tiny minority. Do they exist? Sure. They are the ones who make the news. But they are a small minority and not representative of the whole.

In short, when it comes to trans teens, we are really talking about a minority of a minority of a minority of a minority who avail themselves of irreversible surgical solutions and come to regret it. What are the actual numbers? I'm not interested enough to dive deep into what data exists to make an estimate. But it is small.

At the same time, we are also a country that values freedom, medical autonomy, and also defers to parents and families. We let people by the tens of thousands refuse to take vaccines and instead follow quack treatments like ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine and as a result, kill themselves. Tens of thousands of people. Some in my own extended family. We let people who are mentally unstable have unlimited access to firearms and kill themselves. Tens of thousands more people. We let people make choices all the time that are not in their best interests. We do this because we value personal autonomy and freedom over taking away that freedom and overruling personal choice. Especially when it comes to personal medical decisions. And when it comes to personal medical decisions for teens, we normally defer to parents rather than the heavy hand of the state.

Is this an area where there is growing medical evidence and data? Yes. Should there be more data? Yes. Could medical best practices be adjusted and changed over time? Sure. But it should be the medical field not unformed legislators responding to ginned up political hysteria who should be making those adjustments. That is why we have medical boards and so forth. That seems to be what is happening in the UK. Which I'm fine with if it is evidence-based medicine not politics.

So are there some teens who are at risk of making irreversible medical decisions that they will come to regret? I'm sure there are. But there are millions of teens in this country who are at risk of making all manner of irreversible decisions that they will come to regret. And many who face all manner of bad outcomes through no choice of their own. In the end, how does this particular issue rank in terms of actual risk to American teens? Here's a few numbers I quickly googled up. You tell me which are the biggest risks facing American youth. And which ones are worth overruling person freedom, autonomy, and parental rights and wielding the heavy hand of the state to address.

I don’t know what is happening in your corner of the world, but “gender affirming” care here is fully covered, as long as you can convince a counselor that you are indeed transgender. No preauth, no exclusions, covered under Medicaid also.

It is a money spinning business if ever I saw one.

Since we are so early in the “transgender” scene regrets are not likely, or they are being missed. Look at papers written on the subject in the Netherlands, while they have few regrets, they have many “lost to follow-up.” Now lifelong treatment with hormones, some of which are scheduled drugs in the US do not fall from the sky, particularly in a country with a strong national health system. The answer is almost certainly, they stopped taking them, and simply do not wish to interact with the gender clinic any longer.

This is likely the tip of the iceberg of what is to come. These procedures cannot make one the opposite sex. They can only make a good appearing illusion.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I don’t know what is happening in your corner of the world, but “gender affirming” care here is fully covered, as long as you can convince a counselor that you are indeed transgender. No preauth, no exclusions, covered under Medicaid also.

It is a money spinning business if ever I saw one.

Since we are so early in the “transgender” scene regrets are not likely, or they are being missed. Look at papers written on the subject in the Netherlands, while they have few regrets, they have many “lost to follow-up.” Now lifelong treatment with hormones, some of which are scheduled drugs in the US do not fall from the sky, particularly in a country with a strong national health system. The answer is almost certainly, they stopped taking them, and simply do not wish to interact with the gender clinic any longer.

This is likely the tip of the iceberg of what is to come. These procedures cannot make one the opposite sex. They can only make a good appearing illusion.

Frankly, all outward appearance is a superficial and ephemeral illusion. And outward appearance is the least important aspect of any person.

Personally I don't really understand the need for LGBT people to focus so exclusively and obsessively on outward appearance. There is more to life than looks. For non-trans people as well. Being thinner, prettier, having a smaller nose, more hair, or being more buff isn't going to make your life better.

But neither do I understand the obsession that conservatives have with preventing them from doing so. Seriously. With all the real problems in the world, what do you honestly care if some random woman whom you don't know has big tits, small tits, or no tits? What difference does it make to you?
That is what I really don't get.

You want a genetic male who is crossdressing in what is rightly a space for women? One that may or may not be surgically altered, and may have an attraction for women? You want a team of “trans women “ athletes on the opposing team from your daughters, beating them silly in a field hockey game?

That is not the world I want to leave to my daughters, and I suspect if this moves forward, we will rightly mourn the world we have lost.

[Grace]

But neither do I understand the obsession that conservatives have with preventing them from doing so. Seriously. With all the real problems in the world, what do you honestly care if some random woman whom you don't know has big tits, small tits, or no tits? What difference does it make to you?
That is what I really don't get.

Really !?!? You can be thankful I am not the moderator. Crude, crass, word description of women's bodies and usually only used by men talking about women creepily.

[temporal1]

But neither do I understand the obsession that conservatives have with preventing them from doing so. Seriously. With all the real problems in the world, what do you honestly care if some random woman whom you don't know has big tits, small tits, or no tits? What difference does it make to you?
That is what I really don't get.

Really !?!? You can be thankful I am not the moderator.
Crude, crass, word description of women's bodies and usually only used by men talking about women creepily.

It becomes a formal public matter when laws and taxpayer dollars are involved. $$$$

Expensive, dangerous, EXPERIMENTAL COSMETIC treatments+surgeries - when others go without, lacking powerful political blocs+LOBBIES to bully their way through the legal system. They are pushed ahead, being made “super citizens” -
(wait. is legal citizenship even required?)

- - - - - - -

viewtopic.php?t=6748
viewtopic.php?t=4689

[Soloist]

I don’t know what is happening in your corner of the world, but “gender affirming” care here is fully covered, as long as you can convince a counselor that you are indeed transgender. No preauth, no exclusions, covered under Medicaid also.

Yup and it’s happening to younger and younger people. Puberty blockers isn’t the “pause” with no problems they advertise.

Since we are so early in the “transgender” scene regrets are not likely, or they are being missed. Look at papers written on the subject in the Netherlands, while they have few regrets, they have many “lost to follow-up.” Now lifelong treatment with hormones, some of which are scheduled drugs in the US do not fall from the sky, particularly in a country with a strong national health system. The answer is almost certainly, they stopped taking them, and simply do not wish to interact with the gender clinic any longer.

There are very few people I’m aware of who contact their gender clinic. The endocrinologist, obstetrician and urologist are the ones seeing these people secondary to primary care.

The main research such as USTS eliminates detransitioned in its filter questions so they can claim regret is very low.

More accurate studies coming out are suggesting regret that I’ve seen are suggesting 10-20% but sample sizes are small. Some of the research is also suggesting that transitioning for suicide relief is actually not helping at all which trans advocates claim is due to poor acceptance.

[Ken]

But neither do I understand the obsession that conservatives have with preventing them from doing so. Seriously. With all the real problems in the world, what do you honestly care if some random woman whom you don't know has big tits, small tits, or no tits? What difference does it make to you?
That is what I really don't get.

Really !?!? You can be thankful I am not the moderator. Crude, crass, word description of women's bodies and usually only used by men talking about women creepily.

Fine, change it to breasts. My point remains. I'm not the one here who is creepily obsessing about the breast size of strangers and whether it is permissible for them to want them smaller or larger. It is the anti-trans folks who are doing that.

[Ken]

You want a genetic male who is crossdressing in what is rightly a space for women? One that may or may not be surgically altered, and may have an attraction for women? You want a team of “trans women “ athletes on the opposing team from your daughters, beating them silly in a field hockey game?

That is not the world I want to leave to my daughters, and I suspect if this moves forward, we will rightly mourn the world we have lost.

Oh, I think competitive sports that are segregated by gender should be regulated to prevent unfair gender-based competitive advantages. Whether it is men and boys who had natural testosterone during their development, or women who took synthetic testosterone during their development such as the East German female athletes during the 1970s. I think it is perfectly reasonable to tell people that you are free to do whatever you want to your body but that doesn't entitle you to compete as women in competitive athletics.

As for recreational athletics, I'm not particularly concerned about that. A lot of recreational sports and recreational sports facilities are co-ed anyway.

[Soloist]

Fine, change it to breasts. My point remains. I'm not the one here who is creepily obsessing about the breast size of strangers and whether they want them smaller or larger. It is the anti-trans folks who are doing that.

I have no concern over a male with gynecomastia. I have a concern for a female who cuts off hers or a male who unnaturally grows them.
I also don’t really care if someone chooses to modify what is naturally present within reason.

[Josh]

But neither do I understand the obsession that conservatives have with preventing them from doing so. Seriously. With all the real problems in the world, what do you honestly care if some random woman whom you don't know has <<<foul language removed>>> What difference does it make to you?
That is what I really don't get.

Really !?!? You can be thankful I am not the moderator. Crude, crass, word description of women's bodies and usually only used by men talking about women creepily.

Fine, change it to breasts. My point remains. I'm not the one here who is creepily obsessing about the breast size of strangers and whether it is permissible for them to want them smaller or larger. It is the anti-trans folks who are doing that.

It is not “creepy” to have concern about children undergoing major, invasive, irreversible, and unnecessary surgery.

A close family friend experienced breast cancer so I got to learn a lot about the major risks of a mastectomy. A night in the ICU, risks of general anaesthesia, five days post op in the hospital. NOT a trivial thing and never should be done as a cosmetic surgery, let alone in a child.