Crumbley Family Convictions and Sentencings

[Josh]

Ken,

See, for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

There are so few children who commit homicides from the “leafy suburbs” that you can’t make any statistically significant statements about them. The data above is based on perpetrators, not convictions. It is a safe assumption that homicides committed by children do not go unnoticed.

Out of 154 murders, the overwhelming majority were committed by black males, despite being 6% of the overall population. One could as well start complaining that females are less likely to be tried as an adult. Well, that’s probably because they only committed 18 out of 154 of the homicides.

[Ken]

Ken,

See, for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

There are so few children who commit homicides from the “leafy suburbs” that you can’t make any statistically significant statements about them. The data above is based on perpetrators, not convictions. It is a safe assumption that homicides committed by children do not go unnoticed.

Out of 154 murders, the overwhelming majority were committed by black males, despite being 6% of the overall population. One could as well start complaining that females are less likely to be tried as an adult. Well, that’s probably because they only committed 18 out of 154 of the homicides.

Most children tried as adults are over age 14. And your statistics are cumulative over an 8-year period which suggests that murders by children 14 and under are a statistically insignificant problem. You are probably more likely to be struck by lightning.

Now do the affluent white "affluenza teen" Ethan Couch, the 16 year old who got probation for killing four people.

[Josh]

Ken,

See, for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

There are so few children who commit homicides from the “leafy suburbs” that you can’t make any statistically significant statements about them. The data above is based on perpetrators, not convictions. It is a safe assumption that homicides committed by children do not go unnoticed.

Out of 154 murders, the overwhelming majority were committed by black males, despite being 6% of the overall population. One could as well start complaining that females are less likely to be tried as an adult. Well, that’s probably because they only committed 18 out of 154 of the homicides.

Most children tried as adults are over age 14

Now do the affluent white "affluenza teen" Ethan Couch, the 16 year old who got probation for killing four people.

1 anecdote does not prove anything. In any case, the topic at hand here is a 15 year old tried as an adult, so I’ll just leave that anecdote here and rest my case.

Of lower income minority or whatever cases, parents are very rarely charged like they are in the Crumbley case either.

[temporal1]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

From what i’ve read in the past .. not personal experience,
Because there’s lots of crime+violent crime, inner city schools have addressed a lot of these problems over the years, under the radar. Poverty crimes tend to be one on one, handguns, knives, etc. Schools know what’s going on. It’s routine.

Wealthier, safer areas aren’t prepared. People are shocked.
Wealthier kids have time+money, computers, etc., parents may be present, but preoccupied, AND, let’s face it,
nobody’s an expert on how to identify which child is going to act out on which day - - -

Even if they knew, PRIVACY laws, and soft on crime laws prohibit proactive prevention.
“How dare you?” step on anyone’s rights?

The Crumbley case raises important questions. It’s a start.

[Josh]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

Is there any evidence school shooters are getting light sentences?

In addition, there are actually quite a few “mass shooters” who aren’t middle class white kids from leafy suburbia, including at schools.

Let’s start with mass shootings:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476 ... er-s-race/

White mass shooters are only 54% of the cases, despite being 75% of the population. Black shooters are 17%, despite being 13% of the population. So, all else being equal, black people are more likely to be mass shooters than white peole are.

Let’s consider sex:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476 ... -s-gender/

Overwhelmingly male.

Now let’s look at school shooters:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Rac ... _308401952



They’re also disproportionately black, Asian, and Native American. (Latinos are unrepresented, so it is valid to say a Latino person is less likely to be a school shooter.)

I suppose your statement about the “majority” is technically true, given it’s over 50%, but not taking per capita into account is playing games with statistics.

[temporal1]

i was just trying to note, it’s unlikely a “one size fits all” answer/policy will work.

Frankly, i’m impressed the inner city schools (from what i read) have just gone along and addressed evident problems as they’ve arisen, rather than lobby the feds. Teachers+admin are not typically suicidal. They take measures to protect themselves+schools as needed.

[Ken]

I suppose your statement about the “majority” is technically true, given it’s over 50%, but not taking per capita into account is playing games with statistics.

School shooters are a very tiny fraction of violent youth who are convicted and sentenced in this country. And they aren't all children either. Depending on how you define school shootings, it appears that a large percentage, perhaps even 50% or more were 18 or over.

The question in my mind around the whole issue of trying and sentencing children as adults is whether this is being done equitably, or there is a bias towards using this tool against defendants who are poor and non-white. Just like with the death penalty, that appears to be the case.

I would actually argue for more of middle ground such as they have in El Salvador where the youngest defendants are treated somewhat differently than older defendants and it is kind of a sliding scale as you get closer to age 18. We should definitely get them off the streets. But I'm not comfortable with giving 13 year-olds life sentences without possibility of parole. We don't treat 12-14 year old children as adults in any other aspect of life from voting to marriage to driving because we know in fact that they are not mature

[Josh]

The paper I linked included breakdowns by age. There was no significant difference across age

More importantly, there doesn’t seem to be a disparity in sentencing.

Overall a 15 or 17 year old who murders someone has a serious problem and it doesn’t make sense to give them a slap on the wrist so they can go do it again.

[Ken]

The paper I linked included breakdowns by age. There was no significant difference across age

More importantly, there doesn’t seem to be a disparity in sentencing.

Overall a 15 or 17 year old who murders someone has a serious problem and it doesn’t make sense to give them a slap on the wrist so they can go do it again.

I'm talking about the percentage of juvenile offenders who are remanded to adult courts. It appears there is a racial bias there. Black youth are more likely to be remanded to adult courts for trial and sentencing than white youth. And receive longer sentences for the same crimes. For example: https://www.nacdl.org/Content/Race-and-Juvenile-Justice

I am by no means saying that juvenile offenders who commit serious crimes should be given a slap on the wrist. I'm simply questioning whether they should be sentenced to such extreme sentences as are given to adult offenders. There is probably some good middle ground similar to what El Salvador is doing, since you brought it up El Salvador.

[temporal1]

Related case: VIRGINIA

Anthony Brian Logan / “Mother Of Six-Year-Old Boy Who SHOT His Teacher Sent To PRISON!” / -13min

Description:
Deja Taylor, the mother of a six-year-old boy who shot his teacher in Virginia, has been sentenced to two years in prison.
Taylor has been convicted of two separate charges. The first guilty verdict...