Crumbley Family Convictions and Sentencings

[ohio jones]

So instead of thinking that life sentences for youth are going to deter gang leaders from using children as food soldiers (hint, it won't deter them) we as a society need to decide how we are going to deal with 12, 13, and 14 year old defendants. And we shouldn't be paying attention to gang leaders when we make that decision.

Why not? Nail the gang leader with the adult version of the sentence the juvenile would receive (ramp up the penalties for contributing to the delinquency of a minor and charge them with that), and give the juvenile a reduced sentence along with some form of witness protection.

That might help keep the food soldiers in the cafeteria fights.

[Ken]

So instead of thinking that life sentences for youth are going to deter gang leaders from using children as food soldiers (hint, it won't deter them) we as a society need to decide how we are going to deal with 12, 13, and 14 year old defendants. And we shouldn't be paying attention to gang leaders when we make that decision.

Why not? Nail the gang leader with the adult version of the sentence the juvenile would receive (ramp up the penalties for contributing to the delinquency of a minor and charge them with that), and give the juvenile a reduced sentence along with some form of witness protection.

That might help keep the food soldiers in the cafeteria fights.

Oh sure. I'm 100% for giving gang leaders enormous sentences for the actions and crimes of the 12 year-olds they have working for them. Similar to the subject of this thread where the Crumbley parents are being convicted for the crimes of their son.

And if it means re-writing some of our laws to make that easier then so be it. That should be done.

[Josh]

El Salvador changed its threshold from age 18 to 12, and the "12 year old foot soldier" problem suddenly stopped. It actually does change things quite a bit. 12 year olds have agency. And 12 year olds can choose not to join a gang.

[Ken]

El Salvador changed its threshold from age 18 to 12, and the "12 year old foot soldier" problem suddenly stopped. It actually does change things quite a bit. 12 year olds have agency. And 12 year olds can choose not to join a gang.

Yes but even El Salvador doesn't sentence juveniles to life in prison and doesn't hold them in adult prisons like we do here in the US. Here are the actual facts: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/08/el- ... ger-rights

On March 30, the Legislative Assembly lowered the age of criminal responsibility for children accused of the existing crime of belonging to “terrorist groups or any other criminal gang,” from 16 years to 12. The new legislation allows prison sentences of up to 10 years for children ages 12 to 16 and of up to 20 years for children over 16. Salvadoran law establishes that children have a right not to be held in adult detention sites.

What El Salvador is doing is actually more reasonable than the US:

• Children ages 12-16 can sentenced for up to 10 years maximum
• Children aged 17 can be sentenced for up to 20 years maximum
• No children under the age of 18 can held in adult prisons

[Judas Maccabeus]

El Salvador changed its threshold from age 18 to 12, and the "12 year old foot soldier" problem suddenly stopped. It actually does change things quite a bit. 12 year olds have agency. And 12 year olds can choose not to join a gang.

Yes but even El Salvador doesn't sentence juveniles to life in prison and doesn't hold them in adult prisons like we do here in the US. Here are the actual facts: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/08/el- ... ger-rights

On March 30, the Legislative Assembly lowered the age of criminal responsibility for children accused of the existing crime of belonging to “terrorist groups or any other criminal gang,” from 16 years to 12. The new legislation allows prison sentences of up to 10 years for children ages 12 to 16 and of up to 20 years for children over 16. Salvadoran law establishes that children have a right not to be held in adult detention sites.

What El Salvador is doing is actually more reasonable than the US:

• Children ages 12-16 can sentenced for up to 10 years maximum
• Children aged 17 can be sentenced for up to 20 years maximum
• No children under the age of 18 can held in adult prisons

We do not hold Juveniles in adult prison, but they are transferred when they hit 18.
It is highly irregular for anyone under 16 to be sentenced for long time.
A 15 year old squeegee extorter that shot a guy in the back here got 15 years. Never found out where he got the 700-800$ pistol. Actually went to his backpack to get it. Victim was retreating from the confrontation. Voluntary manslaughter, if that happened to most of us, it would have been murder. Maryland is a duty to retreat state. This kid was likely a crip.

[temporal1]

i’m glad the questions are being brought into the light.
There are serious problems that need to be addressed.

A number of young mass shooters came from privileged families. Beginning with Columbine.

What is the responsibility of parents, rich or poor, to not raise/enable psychopaths?

i’m not sure any case happened “out of the blue.”
problems are known. not just parents, the entire system fails. over+over.

often, psychiatric drugs are involved.

[barnhart]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

[Ken]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

Oh, come on.

Ernie started the discussion with:

Ethan was 15 at the time of the shooting. He was sentenced to life without parole.
I do not think this is an unfair punishment.

A question though... At what point do they try minors as adults and sentence minors as adults?

In other words, Ernie was asking about the appropriateness of trying and sentencing minors as adults. The discussion has been pretty on-topic because the vast majority of cases in which that actually happens in the US is with minority youth in the inner cities, not affluent white kids from the leafy suburbs. Ethan Crumbley not withstanding.

[Josh]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

Oh, come on.

Ernie started the discussion with:

Ethan was 15 at the time of the shooting. He was sentenced to life without parole.
I do not think this is an unfair punishment.

A question though... At what point do they try minors as adults and sentence minors as adults?

In other words, Ernie was asking about the appropriateness of trying and sentencing minors as adults. The discussion has been pretty on-topic because the vast majority of cases in which that actually happens in the US is with minority youth in the inner cities, not affluent white kids from the leafy suburbs. Ethan Crumbley not withstanding.

I would allege it happens proportionately based on the amount of serious crimes committed, though. Do you have evidence that 15 year olds from leafy suburbs are somehow committing murder frequently and not getting punished?

[Ken]

I think T1 makes a valid point, the discussion went to youth from impoverished inner cities in a flash while the majority of school shooters are middle class white kids from the leafy suburbia.

Oh, come on.

Ernie started the discussion with:

Ethan was 15 at the time of the shooting. He was sentenced to life without parole.
I do not think this is an unfair punishment.

A question though... At what point do they try minors as adults and sentence minors as adults?

In other words, Ernie was asking about the appropriateness of trying and sentencing minors as adults. The discussion has been pretty on-topic because the vast majority of cases in which that actually happens in the US is with minority youth in the inner cities, not affluent white kids from the leafy suburbs. Ethan Crumbley not withstanding.

I would allege it happens proportionately based on the amount of serious crimes committed, though. Do you have evidence that 15 year olds from leafy suburbs are somehow committing murder frequently and not getting punished?

Why don't you look up the statistics and let us know. What you will actually find is that poor non-white children are far more likely to be tried and sentenced as adults FOR THE SAME CRIME than more affluent white children. There are a lot of statistics that back this up.