Crumbley Family Convictions and Sentencings

[Ernie]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/ethan-crumble ... =105464020

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/james- ... onvictions

[Ernie]

Ethan was 15 at the time of the shooting. He was sentenced to life without parole.
I do not think this is an unfair punishment.

A question though... At what point do they try minors as adults and sentence minors as adults?

[Ken]

Ethan was 15 at the time of the shooting. He was sentenced to life without parole.
I do not think this is an unfair punishment.

A question though... At what point do they try minors as adults and sentence minors as adults?

I think the more interesting question about this case is how much do the parents share in blame for the actions of their son.

When you think about it, those two questions are actually at odds. If we are going to treat Ethan Crumbley as 100% an adult and 100% responsible for his own actions. Then his parent's aren't really at fault. On the other hand, if we are going to blame and prosecute the parents for the actions of their child then perhaps the child really isn't an adult and not fully responsible for his own actions, and maybe shouldn't get life without parole as an adult.

Something to think about.

[Josh]

I think the liability on the parents doesn’t have anything to do with the age and more to do with the fact they bought a firearm for someone they knew was unhinged, doesn’t it?

[Ken]

I think the liability on the parents doesn’t have anything to do with the age and more to do with the fact they bought a firearm for someone they knew was unhinged, doesn’t it?

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

[Josh]

I think the liability on the parents doesn’t have anything to do with the age and more to do with the fact they bought a firearm for someone they knew was unhinged, doesn’t it?

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

Well, he was convicted as an adult partially because he spent quite a while premeditating it and planning it out.

I have hesitancy to get on board with those whole "15 year olds aren't responsible for their actions" thing. It's led to a lot of 15 year old career criminals in our cities who know they face zero accountability for what they do before they turn 18. I think that's a very bad thing.

[Ken]

I think the liability on the parents doesn’t have anything to do with the age and more to do with the fact they bought a firearm for someone they knew was unhinged, doesn’t it?

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

Well, he was convicted as an adult partially because he spent quite a while premeditating it and planning it out.

I have hesitancy to get on board with those whole "15 year olds aren't responsible for their actions" thing. It's led to a lot of 15 year old career criminals in our cities who know they face zero accountability for what they do before they turn 18. I think that's a very bad thing.

I think there are two separate questions here.

1. Are 15 years olds accountable for their actions? I think the answer is clearly yes in most cases. Although parents can also be to blame for abetting bad behavior or not intervening.

2. But I'm not sure if adult life sentences are necessarily appropriate for 15 year olds. I think that is a separate issue. I'm not sure who someone is at age 15 is necessarily who they are 25 years later at age 40. So perhaps some shorter sentence like 25 years might be more humane. Or if we do life sentences, at least have the possibility of parole after 25 years or so at age 40 if they have turned their life around. Something like that.

[Judas Maccabeus]

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

Well, he was convicted as an adult partially because he spent quite a while premeditating it and planning it out.

I have hesitancy to get on board with those whole "15 year olds aren't responsible for their actions" thing. It's led to a lot of 15 year old career criminals in our cities who know they face zero accountability for what they do before they turn 18. I think that's a very bad thing.

I think there are two separate questions here.

1. Are 15 years olds accountable for their actions? I think the answer is clearly yes in most cases. Although parents can also be to blame for abetting bad behavior or not intervening.

2. But I'm not sure if adult life sentences are necessarily appropriate for 15 year olds. I think that is a separate issue. I'm not sure who someone is at age 15 is necessarily who they are 25 years later at age 40. So perhaps some shorter sentence like 25 years might be more humane. Or if we do life sentences, at least have the possibility of parole after 25 years or so at age 40 if they have turned their life around. Something like that.

In my fair state, it is over 14,:for an adult sentence , if the character of that crime fits that sentence. So, the gangs have been recruiting 12-14 year olds to do their dirty work. We have had 14 year olds picked up multiple times in one day for car theft. It seems the best defense against theft/carjacking is to have a manual transmission.

They are changing the laws here. Back to the possibility of getting an adult sentence over 12. Exception is no life without parole for under 18. Our director of juvenile services would like it to be 25. That is a nonstarter after a mass shooting, 20+ people hit. Most of the perpetrators were juveniles. This director wanted to get an over 18 placed in the juvenile system, had him brought in front of a juvenile court judge. DA got the district court involved, he is back to adult court. These juvenile offenders need to see consequences. Other wise the gangs will just recruit them “nothing gonna happen to you.”

[Judas Maccabeus]

I think the liability on the parents doesn’t have anything to do with the age and more to do with the fact they bought a firearm for someone they knew was unhinged, doesn’t it?

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

Well, he was convicted as an adult partially because he spent quite a while premeditating it and planning it out.

I have hesitancy to get on board with those whole "15 year olds aren't responsible for their actions" thing. It's led to a lot of 15 year old career criminals in our cities who know they face zero accountability for what they do before they turn 18. I think that's a very bad thing.

The gangs know that, and use them as their foot soldiers.

[Ken]

It all fits together. Is an unhinged 15 year old really 100% responsible for his own actions? That isn't what our laws actually say.

Well, he was convicted as an adult partially because he spent quite a while premeditating it and planning it out.

I have hesitancy to get on board with those whole "15 year olds aren't responsible for their actions" thing. It's led to a lot of 15 year old career criminals in our cities who know they face zero accountability for what they do before they turn 18. I think that's a very bad thing.

The gangs know that, and use them as their foot soldiers.

They are going to use 12 year-olds as their foot soldiers NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW SAYS. Because 12 year-olds are easily manipulated and don't have the same sense of ethics or common sense as someone who is older. Because 12 year-olds are not, in fact, adults.

So instead of thinking that life sentences for youth are going to deter gang leaders from using children as food soldiers (hint, it won't deter them) we as a society need to decide how we are going to deal with 12, 13, and 14 year old defendants. And we shouldn't be paying attention to gang leaders when we make that decision.

If we as Christians are going to believe in redemption then we have to hold out the possibility that a 12 year old defendant can mend their ways and turn their life around and the person they will be at say age 40 is not who they were at 12 or 14 years old. None of us are. We don't truly believe that 12 year olds are responsible adults. We don't let 12 year-olds, vote, drive cars, buy alcohol or cigarettes or pot, get married, join the military, etc. etc. Because we don't actually think they are adults. And they are not, in fact, adults.

So there is certainly an argument for treating these crimes as severe and give them multi-decade sentences instead of just juvenile detention until age 18. But there is also an argument for giving them less than the life without parole or death sentence that we might give to adults who committed the same crimes. That is where the 25 year parole idea comes from. And I think it makes sense. But it also depends on parole boards taking a hard look at the 40 year old and deciding whether they have sufficiently turned their life around to merit parole or not.