Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
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RZehr
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by RZehr »

Ken wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 7:40 pm

The BETTER question is why doesn't Israel let Gaza civilian refugees into southern Israel to seek shelter there. That is an equally valid question if not more so. There is lots of empty space down there. They can let in vast numbers of Gazan refugees while they conduct their war. But they have chosen not to for less valid reasons than Egypt.
I disagree that this is a better question.
Additionally, while the reasons are different, I don’t think that Israel’s are less valid than Egypts.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:48 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:14 pmYou said that "...the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government." In making that statement, you were saying that Hamas had no fault whatsoever - that the fault for the attack was that of the Israeli government alone. That is victim blaming.
Nonsense. Powerful governments are not victims.

That Hamas is a terrorist organization is a given. It is their core ideology and strategy. They are not secret about it. How the Israeli government chooses to respond to that fact is the area of military strategy and policy. Israel's government chose to ignore and downplay that threat in the service of other policy objectives, namely promoting illegal settlements in the West Bank. And the current war and hostage situation is the predictable result. The hostages are the product of policy decisions by the Israeli government.

Your argument that the Israeli government and Netanyahu are the victims here is absurd when it was they who were charged with security in the first place.

Your argument would be like saying the Biden Administration is the VICTIM because there are waves of illegal migration at the southern border. The fact that there are millions of poor people south of the border who are seeking to immigrate to the US is a given. That is the world we live in. How the US government RESPONDS to that reality is the area of policy. And if that policy is done poorly then we see waves of immigrants flooding our cities. The Biden Administration and Congress are not the VICTIMS of this in any way. It is their policies that have caused the predictable result. We can argue about who is more to blame, Congress or the Administration. But by no stretch are either of them victims of circumstance. They have the power to control circumstances. Just like the Israeli government.
I think it's entirely reasonable to say that the nation of Israel was a victim here.

What I think is nonsense is your claim that Hamas is in no way at fault for killing Israeli civilians.
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Ken
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by Ken »

ken_sylvania wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:03 pm
Ken wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:48 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:14 pmYou said that "...the only reason there are any Israeli hostages in the first place is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government." In making that statement, you were saying that Hamas had no fault whatsoever - that the fault for the attack was that of the Israeli government alone. That is victim blaming.
Nonsense. Powerful governments are not victims.

That Hamas is a terrorist organization is a given. It is their core ideology and strategy. They are not secret about it. How the Israeli government chooses to respond to that fact is the area of military strategy and policy. Israel's government chose to ignore and downplay that threat in the service of other policy objectives, namely promoting illegal settlements in the West Bank. And the current war and hostage situation is the predictable result. The hostages are the product of policy decisions by the Israeli government.

Your argument that the Israeli government and Netanyahu are the victims here is absurd when it was they who were charged with security in the first place.

Your argument would be like saying the Biden Administration is the VICTIM because there are waves of illegal migration at the southern border. The fact that there are millions of poor people south of the border who are seeking to immigrate to the US is a given. That is the world we live in. How the US government RESPONDS to that reality is the area of policy. And if that policy is done poorly then we see waves of immigrants flooding our cities. The Biden Administration and Congress are not the VICTIMS of this in any way. It is their policies that have caused the predictable result. We can argue about who is more to blame, Congress or the Administration. But by no stretch are either of them victims of circumstance. They have the power to control circumstances. Just like the Israeli government.
I think it's entirely reasonable to say that the nation of Israel was a victim here.

What I think is nonsense is your claim that Hamas is in no way at fault for killing Israeli civilians.
I made no such claim whatsoever. Obviously it is Hamas who did the kidnapping. No one claimed otherwise.

What I said was that the kidnappings would not have happened if the Israeli government had been doing their job properly. Had they been doing their job properly, Hamas would not have gotten 10 feet inside of Israel.

Do you consider the Biden Administration and Congress to be a victim of out-of-control immigration? Or do you think out-of-control immigration is a consequence of broken border and immigration policies?

Same exact situation.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:35 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:03 pm
Ken wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:48 pm

Nonsense. Powerful governments are not victims.

That Hamas is a terrorist organization is a given. It is their core ideology and strategy. They are not secret about it. How the Israeli government chooses to respond to that fact is the area of military strategy and policy. Israel's government chose to ignore and downplay that threat in the service of other policy objectives, namely promoting illegal settlements in the West Bank. And the current war and hostage situation is the predictable result. The hostages are the product of policy decisions by the Israeli government.

Your argument that the Israeli government and Netanyahu are the victims here is absurd when it was they who were charged with security in the first place.

Your argument would be like saying the Biden Administration is the VICTIM because there are waves of illegal migration at the southern border. The fact that there are millions of poor people south of the border who are seeking to immigrate to the US is a given. That is the world we live in. How the US government RESPONDS to that reality is the area of policy. And if that policy is done poorly then we see waves of immigrants flooding our cities. The Biden Administration and Congress are not the VICTIMS of this in any way. It is their policies that have caused the predictable result. We can argue about who is more to blame, Congress or the Administration. But by no stretch are either of them victims of circumstance. They have the power to control circumstances. Just like the Israeli government.
I think it's entirely reasonable to say that the nation of Israel was a victim here.

What I think is nonsense is your claim that Hamas is in no way at fault for killing Israeli civilians.
I made no such claim whatsoever. Obviously it is Hamas who did the kidnapping. No one claimed otherwise.

What I said was that the kidnappings would not have happened if the Israeli government had been doing their job properly. Had they been doing their job properly, Hamas would not have gotten 10 feet inside of Israel.

Do you consider the Biden Administration and Congress to be a victim of out-of-control immigration? Or do you think out-of-control immigration is a consequence of broken border and immigration policies?

Same exact situation.
You said "...the only reason" that there are Israeli hostages is the egregious incompetence of Netanyahu's government. If that is the only reason, by definition there cannot be other reasons.
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Dan Z
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by Dan Z »

Back to my OP - the irrationality here (beyond garden-variety hatred - if there is such a thing) has to do with what appears to be a supercharged enmity between Palestinians and Israelis right now - a hatred that is doubtless the result of 75+ years of offense heaped upon offense between these two groups who history has forced together into tight quarters - energized by the events of October 7 and the ensuing heavy-handed military action, and grounded upon vastly differing socio-religious narratives. We who are on the outside cannot feel it like they do - but we get a glimpse of it through their actions.

This struck me as I listen to the way folks from each site talk about the other - the vitriol and disdain I hear are as intense and deep as I have ever heard - often talking about the other in sub-human terms. I'm sure these emotions affect the decision-makers at all levels of both societies - leading to over-the-top craziness (even by middle-east standards) like the October 7th massacre or the razing of Gaza. As far as conflicts and creative solutions go, I fear this will be extremely difficult to resolve.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Dan Z wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:56 pm Back to my OP - the irrationality here (beyond garden-variety hatred - if there is such a thing) has to do with what appears to be a supercharged enmity between Palestinians and Israelis right now - a hatred that is doubtless the result of 75+ years of offense heaped upon offense between these two groups who history has forced together into tight quarters - energized by the events of October 7 and the ensuing heavy-handed military action, and grounded upon vastly differing socio-religious narratives. We who are on the outside cannot feel it like they do - but we get a glimpse of it through their actions.

This struck me as I listen to the way folks from each site talk about the other - the vitriol and disdain I hear are as intense and deep as I have ever heard - often talking about the other in sub-human terms. I'm sure these emotions affect the decision-makers at all levels of both societies - leading to over-the-top craziness (even by middle-east standards) like the October 7th massacre or the razing of Gaza. As far as conflicts and creative solutions go, I fear this will be extremely difficult to resolve.
Both sides claim the same land, and claim a God given title deed.
I met families that had the title deed from the Ottomans, as well as the key to their house, hanging on the wall, this in Jordan.
You have the Israeli "Hilltop Youth " committing atrocities on the West Bank.
You have in recent memory buses blowing up in Tel Aviv, as well as rockets falling from the sky.
You have an occupation from 1967 to today that permits Jewish settlers to confiscate land from farmers on the West Bank.
You have the recent Hamas atrocities of October 6.

These people are bent on destroying each other. Humanly speaking no settlement is possible. Both sides will kill any of their own that try to settler less than "From the river to the sea" or "All of greater Israel" depending which side you are on. We just need to disengage from both sides, least we get even more blood on our hands.
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Robert
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

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Dan Z wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:56 pm
This struck me as I listen to the way folks from each site talk about the other - the vitriol and disdain I hear are as intense and deep as I have ever heard - often talking about the other in sub-human terms.
I mostly listen to Alan Dershowitz. He presents Israel's side, but does not talk about Palestinians as sub human. Not sure who you are listening to. They may be. His "Dershow" touched on a lot of the history and issues on both sides in multiple episodes.
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Robert
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

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Judas Maccabeus wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:13 pm These people are bent on destroying each other.
I am only hearing that from one side. Many Israelis have and are willing to work towards a functional solution, but all the Palestinians say is they want the river to the sea. This means total genocide. 80% of Palestinians supported the October 7th massacre. Watch the videos and the cheering as dead naked bodies were driven around in the back of trucks.
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Ken
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by Ken »

Language of genocide and "irrational hatred" from prominent Israelis:
Israel’s president, Isaac Herzog, set the tone as he spoke about how far to assign guilt for the worst single atrocity against Jews in his country’s history.

“It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true. They could’ve risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime,” said Herzog.

In different ways, the sentiment that the Palestinians are collectively responsible for the actions of Hamas in killing of about 1,300 Israelis and abduction of 199 – and therefore deserve what is coming to them – has been echoed far beyond Israel’s borders.

In the US, Senator Lindsey Graham called for the wholesale destruction of Gaza.

“We are in a religious war here. I’m with Israel. Do whatever the hell you have to do to defend yourself. Level the place,” he told Fox News.

In the UK, the editor of the Jewish Chronicle, Jake Wallis Simons, took a different tack in generalising guilt by writing that “much of Muslim culture is in the grip of a death cult that sacralises bloodshed” before deleting his tweet after a backlash.

Ariel Kallner, a member of the Israeli parliament for Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, had the answer. He demanded a repeat of the mass expulsion of Arabs in 1948 known to Palestinians as the Nakba or Catastrophe.

“Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948,” he said.
and
When Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip with “no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed”, he said: “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”
and
A prominent Israeli journalist and radio presenter, David Mizrahy Verthaim, has called for wholesale bloodletting. “We need a disproportionate response … If all the captives are not returned immediately, turn the strip into a slaughterhouse. If a hair falls from their head - execute security prisoners. Violate any norm, on the way to victory,” he wrote on X.
and
For years, Israeli leaders have advocated ethnic cleansing, euphemistically called “transfer”, with a discourse that portrays Palestinians as a fake people with no history that matters. In 1989, Netanyahu lamented that Israel missed the opportunity presented by global attention on China’s repression of pro-democracy protests in Tiananmen square “to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the (occupied) territories”.

Opinion polls show that significant numbers of Israelis view Arabs as “dirty”, “primitive”, and as not valuing human life. Generations of Israeli school children have been imbued with the idea that Arabs are interlopers and merely tolerated through the beneficence of Israel.

A 2003 study of Israeli textbooks by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem showed Arabs are principally depicted “with a camel, in an Ali Baba dress”.

“They describe Arabs as vile and deviant and criminal, people who don’t pay taxes, people who live off the state, people who don’t want to develop. The only representation is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer,” the study said.
Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -genocidal and https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023 ... -war-hamas
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Gaza's Irrational Hatred

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Robert wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:28 pm
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:13 pm These people are bent on destroying each other.
I am only hearing that from one side. Many Israelis have and are willing to work towards a functional solution, but all the Palestinians say is they want the river to the sea. This means total genocide. 80% of Palestinians supported the October 7th massacre. Watch the videos and the cheering as dead naked bodies were driven around in the back of trucks.
Unfortunately, it is from both sides. I have seen with my own eyes what the so called "Hilltop Youth" do, and have been doing for 10 years on the West Bank. There are entire political movements in Israel dedicated to driving the Palestinians out. The slogan "Greater Israel" you may hear from the Israeli far right means the same thing.

Some on the Israeli right even deny the existence of the Palestinian people. I have heard that one as well.
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