War in Gaza

[Soloist]

Who determines what is acceptable?

Historically it's been powerful nations with wealth and technology who set the rules of war in a way that favors their preferred method of fighting.

Or more specifically, enforce whatever rules favoring their own empires.

[Bootstrap]

I agree. But the rules can be a kind of litmus test, a way of clearly seeing that something has gone way beyond what is acceptable.

Both Israel and Hamas are after retribution. There is no way to justify the Hamas terrorist attack on October 7th. There is no way to justify what Israel is doing now from a rational military perspective. Unless you accept terrorism as a military strategy. Israel has lost the moral high ground in the way they have conducted this war, and a lot of their traditional allies have backed away.

Who determines what is acceptable?

Historically it's been powerful nations with wealth and technology who set the rules of war in a way that favors their preferred method of fighting.

We are here, now, on MN, saying what we find acceptable. Christians have a moral voice. We decide how we use it.

As Mennonites, we will not fight in any war. As Christians, we seek to help the victims of war, not encourage people to believe that we should not care about what is happening to them. We have compassion for these victims. This is a witness to the world.

But even those who believe in Just War know that some things are way beyond what is OK. Taking out terrorist leaders is one thing, bombing civilian apartment buildings is another. Destroying unarmed people who are no military threat, intentionally cutting off food supplies so that they starve, dismantling hospitals and medical systems so that women have to give birth in filthy, immodest, and unsafe conditions ... even Caesar knows that's wrong.

I personally believe that Caesar has been given the sword in Romans 13. When Israel pursues Hamas leaders who organized the October 7th atrocities, I believe they are acting within that right. But if we can call October 7th an atrocity, surely we can see the atrocities of what Israel is doing in Gaza today. Whether or not the powerful nations agree. In this case, though, I think most nations do agree.

[Bootstrap]

Historically it's been powerful nations with wealth and technology who set the rules of war in a way that favors their preferred method of fighting.

Or more specifically, enforce whatever rules favoring their own empires.

And yet, even when most nations cry out against this kind of evil ... sometimes we are the ones who cannot. Where is our outrage and compassion for these victims? Where is our voice?

[ken_sylvania]

I agree. But the rules can be a kind of litmus test, a way of clearly seeing that something has gone way beyond what is acceptable.

Both Israel and Hamas are after retribution. There is no way to justify the Hamas terrorist attack on October 7th. There is no way to justify what Israel is doing now from a rational military perspective. Unless you accept terrorism as a military strategy. Israel has lost the moral high ground in the way they have conducted this war, and a lot of their traditional allies have backed away.

Who determines what is acceptable?

Historically it's been powerful nations with wealth and technology who set the rules of war in a way that favors their preferred method of fighting.

We are here, now, on MN, saying what we find acceptable. Christians have a moral voice. We decide how we use it.

As Mennonites, we will not fight in any war. As Christians, we seek to help the victims of war, not encourage people to believe that we should not care about what is happening to them. We have compassion for these victims. This is a witness to the world.

But even those who believe in Just War know that some things are way beyond what is OK. Taking out terrorist leaders is one thing, bombing civilian apartment buildings is another. Destroying unarmed people who are no military threat, intentionally cutting off food supplies so that they starve, dismantling hospitals and medical systems so that women have to give birth in filthy, immodest, and unsafe conditions ... even Caesar knows that's wrong.

I personally believe that Caesar has been given the sword in Romans 13. When Israel pursues Hamas leaders who organized the October 7th atrocities, I believe they are acting within that right. But if we can call October 7th an atrocity, surely we can see the atrocities of what Israel is doing in Gaza today. Whether or not the powerful nations agree. In this case, though, I think most nations do agree.

I think that when so-called Christians begin to consider certain types of warfare "acceptable", they have betrayed Jesus Christ and abandoned his teaching. I have nothing to say about what constitutes "acceptable" methods of warfare because all warfare is sinful and wrong.

[Josh]

Warfare is bad, but it may be acceptable to look at something that goes beyond warfare: conducting a systematic slaughter of civilians, not soldiers. And yes, many wars morph into this over time.

[Soloist]

And yet, even when most nations cry out against this kind of evil ... sometimes we are the ones who cannot. Where is our outrage and compassion for these victims? Where is our voice?

Our outrage?

Why should we have outrage over any of this? Compassion yes.
In practical application, there isn’t any way to do this without politics and I’m happy to pray for the suffering. I’m not going to get involved with politics over the latest injustices occurring all over the world every day.

[Sudsy]

And yet, even when most nations cry out against this kind of evil ... sometimes we are the ones who cannot. Where is our outrage and compassion for these victims? Where is our voice?

Our outrage?

Why should we have outrage over any of this? Compassion yes.
In practical application, there isn’t any way to do this without politics and I’m happy to pray for the suffering. I’m not going to get involved with politics over the latest injustices occurring all over the world every day.

I agree that compassion is what is most needed. Outrage should be toward the current ruler of this world and his influence on mankind. We need warfare as scripture says but it has to do with winning the war over the souls of people.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
— Ephesians 6:12

What is the solution to this flesh and blood warring wherever it is occuring is the Gospel that saves us.

[Bootstrap]

And yet, even when most nations cry out against this kind of evil ... sometimes we are the ones who cannot. Where is our outrage and compassion for these victims? Where is our voice?

Our outrage?
Why should we have outrage over any of this? Compassion yes.

I think Jesus did express outrage over the way people are treated. For instance, in Mark 3:

Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

Shouldn't Christians be angry and distressed when people are treated this way?

[Soloist]

And yet, even when most nations cry out against this kind of evil ... sometimes we are the ones who cannot. Where is our outrage and compassion for these victims? Where is our voice?

Our outrage?
Why should we have outrage over any of this? Compassion yes.

I think Jesus did express outrage over the way people are treated. For instance, in Mark 3:

Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

Shouldn't Christians be angry and distressed when people are treated this way?

Luk 13:1  There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2  And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

How did Jesus express outrage here?

[ohio jones]

Shouldn't Christians be angry and distressed when people are treated this way?

Yes. But the problem is that it's popular for people to demand that you are angry and distressed, and express that on social media, about whatever is currently dominating the news. Sometimes that may be the leading of the Holy Spirit (hi Sudsy!), but more often it is performative virtue signaling. Meanwhile all sorts of other injustices are ignored because they are not popular or promoted.

In the example of Jesus, he was physically present, had the power to do something about the situation, and acted with compassion toward the one who needed healing. His anger was toward those who wanted to repress his compassion. Not toward what the Roman Army was doing to the Visigoths, or whoever the enemy du jour happened to be.