War in Gaza

[Josh]

I agree. But that doesn't make all citizens fair game.

And if Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals, why doesn't Israel set up military field hospitals where the sick and wounded can be cared for and women can safely give birth? If Israel wants to control food shipments to stop Gazans from starving, why doesn't Israel coordinate it themselves?

These judgments are based on listening to or favoring one side.
i’m not convinced Israel sees all citizens as fair game, nor that Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals. Not sure about control of food shipments, either. i’m aware of the allegations.

What would it take to convince you?

[RZehr]

Israel reportedly used ‘Lavender’ AI system to ID thousands of dubious targets in Gaza war


https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-repor ... 12961.html
…
In the weeks immediately after Hamas’s 7 October surprise attack on Israel, the Israel Defense Forces allegedly intentionally targeted civilian homes and allegedly used an AI-based programme called Lavender to generate targets for assassination, generating scores of bombings based on decisions made with scant human review.

At one point, the system used mass surveillance in Gaza to generate a list of 37,000 bombing targets, including numerous low-level alleged Hamas operatives who wouldn’t typically be the targets of bombing operations, according to a report.

Early on in the war, IDF gave clearance to allow 20 civilian deaths for every low-ranking Hamas suspect, intelligence sources said: report
https://www.yahoo.com/news/early-war-id ... 00680.html
…
The sources, who remained unnamed, told the outlets that the IDF used artificial intelligence, a system internally known as "Lavender," in order to create a database of potential targets who may be linked to Hamas and PIJ. At one point during the early weeks of the war, the system identified up to 37,000 Palestinians, according to four of the intelligence sources, The Guardian reported.

Once the AI identified a potential target, a human would devote less than a minute to check the machine's decision, a source told the outlets.

"I would invest 20 seconds for each target at this stage and do dozens of them every day," an intelligence source said, according to The Guardian. "I had zero added value as a human, apart from being a stamp of approval. It saved a lot of time."

Along with the AI-based targeting system, especially early in the war the IDF made it permissible to kill a certain number of civilians for every suspected Hamas militant assassinated, two of the sources told +972 and Local Call. In warfare, these civilian deaths are referred to as collateral damage.

Two of the sources told the outlets that in the first few weeks of the war, the IDF allowed up to 15 or 20 civilian deaths for every low-ranking Hamas militant assassinated.

That number could increase to up to more than 100 civilians if the IDF were targeting a single senior Hamas official, the sources said.

"There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of operations," one source said, according to the report. "A policy so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge."

The number of allowed collateral damage has fluctuated since the beginning of the war, with one intelligence officer saying the rate was recently brought down again, according to The Guardian.

[barnhart]

I agree. But that doesn't make all citizens fair game.

And if Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals, why doesn't Israel set up military field hospitals where the sick and wounded can be cared for and women can safely give birth? If Israel wants to control food shipments to stop Gazans from starving, why doesn't Israel coordinate it themselves?

These judgments are based on listening to or favoring one side.
i’m not convinced Israel sees all citizens as fair game, nor that Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals. Not sure about control of food shipments, either. i’m aware of the allegations.

I'm not a booster for Zionism but to be fair Israel has gone to great lengths to keep Gazan hospitals operating.

[Bootstrap]

I'm not a booster for Zionism but to be fair Israel has gone to great lengths to keep Gazan hospitals operating.

Can you say more about that? That hasn't been my impression, but I may not be seeing some of the things you see.

What I am reading says that these hospitals are very short on even basic supplies, surgeries are being doing in very primitive conditions, people are dying of things that are eminently treatable, and that women are giving birth in conditions I couldn't imagine. Gazan hospitals are not operating normally at all, and Israel could be doing a lot to fix that.

You seem to be seeing a different picture?

[barnhart]

More could be done certainly, but by comparison to the US invasion of Iraqi cities, I think Israel is doing better. Ground combat in hospitals is costly to the IDF, they could evacuate and carpet bomb.

[Bootstrap]

More could be done certainly, but by comparison to the US invasion of Iraqi cities, I think Israel is doing better. Ground combat in hospitals is costly to the IDF, they could evacuate and carpet bomb.

They could set up safe field hospitals, then ask people to evacuate to those hospitals. They could let medical supplies into the country, plenty of people want to send them.

I think the US was awful in Iraq. I don't know who is worse, that's not usually a helpful conversation.

[Josh]

I’m not sure I’d call bombing a hospital “keeping it operating”.

Iraq and Afghanistan was a mass slaughter operation of a million people, but the fact the U.S. did a bad thing doesn’t make Israel doing a bad thing somehow better, particularly when one considers the U.S. and Israel are allies and have colluded to engage in such mass slaughters. Both countries support the other in doing wrong.

[temporal1]

I agree. But that doesn't make all citizens fair game.

And if Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals, why doesn't Israel set up military field hospitals where the sick and wounded can be cared for and women can safely give birth? If Israel wants to control food shipments to stop Gazans from starving, why doesn't Israel coordinate it themselves?

These judgments are based on listening to or favoring one side.
i’m not convinced Israel sees all citizens as fair game, nor that Israel wants to take out all Gazan hospitals. Not sure about control of food shipments, either. i’m aware of the allegations.

What would it take to convince you?

i appreciate this question, and the comments following.

In response, i first think of my disdain for msm leading mob mentality, including protests, on every issue, not just Gaza.
They are regularly found to be grossly biased if not dead wrong.

Going back a month, in DanZ’s thread linked below, P.3, i appreciate the posts found there, esp Ben Shapiro’s video, he speaks for the Jewish view, his Jewish view, there are time stamps if listening in full is not chosen. (i didn’t review the entire thread.)

Ben S is Jewish and biased. Not hiding it.

i saw a short blurb today where he is distraught about the deaths of aid workers.
As Soloist posted somewhere, wars are not kind to civilians.

P.3 / GAZA’S IRRATIONAL HATRED
viewtopic.php?t=6627&start=20

[Bootstrap]

Nice graphic on the Gaza Strip as it was before the war:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/map-ex ... aza-strip/

[Robert]

With coast line like they have, they could have wonderful resorts and all kinds of tourist money. International money flows in like crazy. Yet, they build bombs with pipelines and blame others for their struggles.

As in North Korea, they have been taught that their struggles are from their enemies. The leadership props up their enemies and convinces everyone that it is all the enemy's fault. This is why 80% of Gaza supports Hamas. The truth is far from that.