War in Gaza

[Bootstrap]

I’ve been to Israel and Egypt each a couple of times. But the only person I really know well in Israel currently, is not non-resistant, and seems extremely pro-Israel and Zionist to me. So my take does not mesh with that friends take.

And the only person I sort of know in Egypt, is a business contact who is Muslim, and I would say that I “know” him much at all.

I also know an Orthodox Jew who flew to Israel "to help". I have had several conversations with him about this, at least a couple of hours total.

October 7th was devastating for Israelis. Like 9/11 for Americans.

[Szdfan]

I think this is one of the most cynical things I've read on MN -- it's the kind of thinking that justifies war atrocities. At least 30,000 Gazans have died so far and the IDF has destroyed or damaged between 35% and 50% of structures in Gaza. It's beyond "pressure."

I was just sharing what I have heard and learned. I am not saying I support this train of thought. I was just speaking matter of fact of how the world works and how others view things. War always minimizes their opponents. I think that is wrong, but it is a fact of life.

I meant to respond to this. Thanks for your clarification. In your original post, it seemed like this was your point of view, which surprised me. I still think it's a deeply cynical point of view, even if it's not yours.

[ken_sylvania]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

#1 - I don't think I've seen this at all
#2 - One or two posters maybe implied that the aid problem was more hype than reality but I don't think it's fair to say that's a common response
#3 - Again, not a common response
#4 - First part is about right - second part I haven't noticed anyone say anything remotely like that and feels like a deliberate misrepresentation of what several have posted
#5 - I don't think I've seen this at all either. Disagreeing with the implications of someone's statement is not the same as implying that there is something wrong with the person. For instance, I disagree with the implications of statements that criticize Hamas or Israel for failing to adhere to "rules of war" because I think that gives a certain legitimacy to "civil" war. But that doesn't imply that I think that such a person is stupid.

I think that you are misinterpreting what people are saying.

[GaryK]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

Maybe, rather than assuming the motives of people posting, it would be better to ask them why they posted something.

[Robert]

Maybe, rather than assuming the motives of people posting, it would be better to ask them why they posted something.

This is actually in the guidelines.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

Maybe, rather than assuming the motives of people posting, it would be better to ask them why they posted something.

Not one of those things is a statement about motive. Each is a characterization of the response itself. Do these responses express compassion for victims, or do they turn away from compassion?

Whatever the motives, I don't see a lot of posts expressing compassion for people in Gaza. When I post something that expresses compassion for them, I feel like the response is often pushing back. People can feel free to explain their motives, but I really wish this were more about the people of Gaza, less about how we want to be seen.

To me, compassion is a core Christian value.

[GaryK]

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

Maybe, rather than assuming the motives of people posting, it would be better to ask them why they posted something.

Not one of those things is a statement about motive. Each is a characterization of the response itself. Do these responses express compassion for victims, or do they turn away from compassion?

Whatever the motives, I don't see a lot of posts expressing compassion for people in Gaza. When I post something that expresses compassion for them, I feel like the response is often pushing back. People can feel free to explain their motives, but I really wish this were more about the people of Gaza, less about how we want to be seen.

To me, compassion is a core Christian value.

And yet you imply motive in those points. The motive you imply in most of them is that the reason folks on MN are responding as they are is because they don't care about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

[Bootstrap]

Not one of those things is a statement about motive. Each is a characterization of the response itself. Do these responses express compassion for victims, or do they turn away from compassion?

Whatever the motives, I don't see a lot of posts expressing compassion for people in Gaza. When I post something that expresses compassion for them, I feel like the response is often pushing back. People can feel free to explain their motives, but I really wish this were more about the people of Gaza, less about how we want to be seen.

To me, compassion is a core Christian value.

And yet you imply motive in those points. The motive you imply in most of them is that the reason folks on MN are responding as they are is because they don't care about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

I don't know people's motives, I am not the judge of their inner being.

But I can tell if that's what they decide to discuss. If you want me to know how you feel about the suffering of the people of Gaza, and what is important to you, feel free to write about that. I would love to have the kind of discussion that shows Christian compassion for the victims of this war.

[GaryK]

Not one of those things is a statement about motive. Each is a characterization of the response itself. Do these responses express compassion for victims, or do they turn away from compassion?

Whatever the motives, I don't see a lot of posts expressing compassion for people in Gaza. When I post something that expresses compassion for them, I feel like the response is often pushing back. People can feel free to explain their motives, but I really wish this were more about the people of Gaza, less about how we want to be seen.

To me, compassion is a core Christian value.

And yet you imply motive in those points. The motive you imply in most of them is that the reason folks on MN are responding as they are is because they don't care about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

I don't know people's motives, I am not the judge of their inner being.

But I can tell if that's what they decide to discuss.

Then I can't understand why you you wrote those 5 points.

[Bootstrap]

Then I can't understand why you you wrote those 5 points.

I think I explained that:

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.