War in Gaza

[Bootstrap]

In practical application, there isn’t any way to do this without politics and I’m happy to pray for the suffering. I’m not going to get involved with politics over the latest injustices occurring all over the world every day.

In practical application, I think this affects the way we should talk about victims here on MN among ourselves, how we pray for them, how we look for ways to help.

[temporal1]

Yes. But the problem is that it's popular for people to demand that you are angry and distressed, and express that on social media, about whatever is currently dominating the news. Sometimes that may be the leading of the Holy Spirit (hi Sudsy!), but more often it is performative virtue signaling. Meanwhile all sorts of other injustices are ignored because they are not popular or promoted.

In the example of Jesus, he was physically present, had the power to do something about the situation, and acted with compassion toward the one who needed healing. His anger was toward those who wanted to repress his compassion. Not toward what the Roman Army was doing to the Visigoths, or whoever the enemy du jour happened to be.

i’ve been chronically distressed and dismayed since Oct 7, maybe because Ukraine was not yet resolved, and, as you say, other horrifying injustices are raging, examples, Haiti, on our doorstep, and in places in Africa and elsewhere. As well as ongoing strife in the U.S.

my perception is, LOTS of people are experiencing an extra burden of malaise, maybe since Oct 7.
Hamas on top of everything else.

Then to come to this forum to be told “you’re not grieving adequately, or at all, you’re cynical if not evil” etc.
This is a sign there is an acceptable assigned narrative, down to the word, don’t step out of bounds. The narrative creators are nothing if not micromanagers. [A sign to exercise caution.]

i enjoy new members, esp from outside the U.S., to try to grasp thoughts that might not have been forced through the fine sieve of U.S. lib politicians+msm.

[Bootstrap]

Shouldn't Christians be angry and distressed when people are treated this way?

Yes. But the problem is that it's popular for people to demand that you are angry and distressed, and express that on social media, about whatever is currently dominating the news. Sometimes that may be the leading of the Holy Spirit (hi Sudsy!), but more often it is performative virtue signaling. Meanwhile all sorts of other injustices are ignored because they are not popular or promoted.

I agree. Most of us are not called to be involved in most injustices. Performative outrage is useless.

But I don't think that justifies actively minimizing the suffering of these people.

For what it's worth, I was in Israel last Summer, talking to both Israelis and Palestinians. I am talking to people from several Bible translation groups that work in the Middle East on a regular basis, including Gaza. I heard a great 1-hour presentation from these people:

https://www.pbs-web.org/

Welcome to the Palestinian Bible Society website

We are grateful to be able to live, give and serve in the Holy Lands. I recognize that amidst all the human strife and suffering the lands often seem anything but ‘Holy’. But I was reminded recently by one of our long-term supporters that the greatest work ever done in the land was the Crucifixion and Resurrection. It is our desire to the promote sacrificial love of Jesus in the “Holy Land.” In doing that we affirm our love for all peoples and pray for transformation in the current geopolitical and enduring peace.

I am also talking with people from relief organizations I donate to.

In the example of Jesus, he was physically present, had the power to do something about the situation, and acted with compassion toward the one who needed healing. His anger was toward those who wanted to repress his compassion. Not toward what the Roman Army was doing to the Visigoths, or whoever the enemy du jour happened to be.

I agree. But I keep thinking about this - what would the Palestinian Bible Society people or translation teams in Egypt think, reading this forum? What would the people on the ground, trying to help these victims of war, think? What if everyone in Gaza read these threads, what would they conclude about Christians here?

In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help.

[GaryK]

Shouldn't Christians be angry and distressed when people are treated this way?

Yes. But the problem is that it's popular for people to demand that you are angry and distressed, and express that on social media, about whatever is currently dominating the news. Sometimes that may be the leading of the Holy Spirit (hi Sudsy!), but more often it is performative virtue signaling. Meanwhile all sorts of other injustices are ignored because they are not popular or promoted.

I agree. Most of us are not called to be involved in most injustices. Performative outrage is useless.

But I don't think that justifies actively minimizing the suffering of these people.

For what it's worth, I was in Israel last Summer, talking to both Israelis and Palestinians. I am talking to people from several Bible translation groups that work in the Middle East on a regular basis, including Gaza. I heard a great 1-hour presentation from these people:

https://www.pbs-web.org/

Welcome to the Palestinian Bible Society website

We are grateful to be able to live, give and serve in the Holy Lands. I recognize that amidst all the human strife and suffering the lands often seem anything but ‘Holy’. But I was reminded recently by one of our long-term supporters that the greatest work ever done in the land was the Crucifixion and Resurrection. It is our desire to the promote sacrificial love of Jesus in the “Holy Land.” In doing that we affirm our love for all peoples and pray for transformation in the current geopolitical and enduring peace.

I am also talking with people from relief organizations I donate to.

In the example of Jesus, he was physically present, had the power to do something about the situation, and acted with compassion toward the one who needed healing. His anger was toward those who wanted to repress his compassion. Not toward what the Roman Army was doing to the Visigoths, or whoever the enemy du jour happened to be.

I agree. But I keep thinking about this - what would the Palestinian Bible Society people or translation teams in Egypt think, reading this forum? What would the people on the ground, trying to help these victims of war, think? What if everyone in Gaza read these threads, what would they conclude about Christians here?

In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

[RZehr]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

Just remember that disagreement is where most discussion happens. Not agreement. We all feel sorry for the victims. You want us all to say how horrible it is, okay. Now what, end of discussion because we all are in agreement on this. The lack of discussion is because we all agree.

If we all repeat good sounding platitudes to each other, and we all agree, then repeating these feelings of compassion over and over again serves what purpose if it doesn’t move the conversation anywhere except in a confirmation echo chamber-esque circle?

[Bootstrap]

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't recall anyone on MN actively minimizing the suffering of the people in Gaza. If I'm missing it, please enlighten me.

Here's what I see happening: when someone points to what the people of Gaza are going through, the response is often to do one of the following:

1. Imply that all the people of Gaza are somehow complicit in October 7th, and thus fair game.
2. Suggest that this is not really happening, that Israel is letting all kinds of aid through.
3. Ask if this is really any worse than any of many other tragedies.
4. Say that of course this is happening, all war is evil. We don't fight in wars, so we're OK.
5. Imply that there is something wrong with the person who posted about the suffering of the people of Gaza.

All of this, I think, draws away from any prayer, compassion, or questions of how to help. Posts that do that are quickly drowned out. I don't think every Christian is called to be involved in every tragedy, but on MN, I generally feel we are not good at doing these things for any tragedy that does not involve Mennonites. Worse, we wind up discussing almost every tragedy, but not out of compassion for the victims.

I think this is related to what Ohio Jones calls virtue signaling. Often, we wind up echoing what "our side" believes about things, not focusing on victims or what our role might be as Christians. In general, the way to get past performative opinion is to call for compassionate prayer or to seek ways to help. To ask what God is asking of us.

Just remember that disagreement is where most discussion happens. Not agreement. We all feel sorry for the victims. You want us all to say how horrible it is, okay. Now what, end of discussion because we all are in agreement on this. The lack of discussion is because we all agree.

But on other topics, people often chime in enthusiastically to say they agree. Sometimes so strongly that it can feel like there's something terribly wrong with anyone who disagrees. Particularly with certain political positions.

And here, on this topic, when people do say they agree, the often sound defensive, and about them, not about the victims, and not about whether there's something to do to help or to pray. "We all feel sorry for the victims". Not, "yes, let's pray for the victims, this must be horrible for them, I can't imagine what they are going through, are there places we can donate or things we can do to help?" There's a level of distancing and a level of virtue signaling. "Not our problem. But we are the good guys." Not just on this topic, of course.

If we all repeat good sounding platitudes to each other, and we all agree, then repeating these feelings of compassion over and over again serves what purpose if it doesn’t move the conversation anywhere except in a confirmation echo chamber-esque circle?

Better, perhaps, would be to take the time to talk about what people are actually experiencing on the ground, hear their own stories, and take them seriously. Get beyond what we think we know. Get beyond the virtue signaling. I've been talking to Christians in Egypt and other places in the Middle East who are trying to reach their Muslim neighbors, and you should hear them talk about Gaza and how it affects their ability to do that.

Of course, we don't have to discuss these things at all. But if we do, imagine someone who lives in Gaza and someone who lives in Jerusalem reading what we write. We need compassion for victims on both sides. We need to value human life on both sides. And it's not about us or our opinions, it's about the people who are actually experiencing these things first hand, people whose lives have been devastated.

[Soloist]

Better, perhaps, would be to take the time to talk about what people are actually experiencing on the ground, hear their own stories, and take them seriously. Get beyond what we think we know. Get beyond the virtue signaling. I've been talking to Christians in Egypt and other places in the Middle East who are trying to reach their Muslim neighbors, and you should hear them talk about Gaza and how it affects their ability to do that.

Of course, we don't have to discuss these things at all. But if we do, imagine someone who lives in Gaza and someone who lives in Jerusalem reading what we write. We need compassion for victims on both sides. We need to value human life on both sides. And it's not about us or our opinions, it's about the people who are actually experiencing these things first hand, people whose lives have been devastated.

Most of us don’t have the ability to do this so perhaps you are trying to talk to someone else.
Outside of Josh, I don’t know anyone on here who has been there. I’ve been in Italy and Cuba, so perhaps I can speak about pizza and “detainees” but my knowledge of Gaza prior to this attack was a picture of a tractor and what I know post WW2

[RZehr]

I’ve been to Israel and Egypt each a couple of times. But the only person I really know well in Israel currently, is not non-resistant, and seems extremely pro-Israel and Zionist to me. So my take does not mesh with that friends take.

And the only person I sort of know in Egypt, is a business contact who is Muslim, and I would say that I “know” him much at all.

[Bootstrap]

Better, perhaps, would be to take the time to talk about what people are actually experiencing on the ground, hear their own stories, and take them seriously. Get beyond what we think we know. Get beyond the virtue signaling. I've been talking to Christians in Egypt and other places in the Middle East who are trying to reach their Muslim neighbors, and you should hear them talk about Gaza and how it affects their ability to do that.

Of course, we don't have to discuss these things at all. But if we do, imagine someone who lives in Gaza and someone who lives in Jerusalem reading what we write. We need compassion for victims on both sides. We need to value human life on both sides. And it's not about us or our opinions, it's about the people who are actually experiencing these things first hand, people whose lives have been devastated.

Most of us don’t have the ability to do this so perhaps you are trying to talk to someone else.
Outside of Josh, I don’t know anyone on here who has been there. I’ve been in Italy and Cuba, so perhaps I can speak about pizza and “detainees” but my knowledge of Gaza prior to this attack was a picture of a tractor and what I know post WW2.

Sure.

But some people are talking rather confidently ABOUT these people. And if we are going to talk about these people, it's worth taking time to get to know their experiences. Some months back, I was in a 90 minute video call with the head of the Palestinian Bible Society and about 30 other people, we were all in tears as he told us about their experiences in Gaza. And then I came on here ...

If we are going to talk about these people and express opinions, why are we doing that? What is the Christian approach here?