War in Gaza

[RZehr]

Every war represents failure. Maybe James 4 is instructive.

[Josh]

I think there is truth to this. What I don’t understand is the accompanying callousness that seems to come with it — what to me feels like a shrug about the suffering of the victims of war.

To me this feels deeply cynical.

The people who say this aren't cynical or callous, but they do get their news from sources which are effectively just IDF press releases. They start to believe the stuff they read, such as that 80% of Gaza is part of Hamas. (By that standard, Hamas has a million-plus strong army!)

[Bootstrap]

I don’t know if it is cynicism or callousness. Maybe hopeless. Maybe acceptance.

It's a decision to not hunger and thirst for righteousness, a decision to not mourn what really should be mourned, a decision to justify truly horrible things and let one side off the hook - but not the other side. I don't think that's what the Kingdom of God does.

Maybe our doctrine that earthly government will fight forever fight wars, and that as long as the earth stands there will be wars and rumors of wars, removes any lavender glasses from our eyes. These glasses being the notion that war can be fair or clean or just, and that war can be legislated and negotiated into extinction with global treaties and the U.N.
And we sort of expect both war to be a constant on earth, and within this constant, it will be ugly and brutal and innocents will always suffer.

Yes, creation is groaning and longing to be released. But I don't think our role, as Christians, is to justify and excuse truly outrageous evil. By either side.

[GaryK]

I don’t know if it is cynicism or callousness. Maybe hopeless. Maybe acceptance.

It's a decision to not hunger and thirst for righteousness, a decision to not mourn what really should be mourned, a decision to justify truly horrible things and let one side off the hook - but not the other side. I don't think that's what the Kingdom of God does.

It seems you are calling out RZehr for deciding to not hunger and thirst for righteousness and to not mourn like he should, and for deciding to justify truly horrible things. That seems like a pretty judgmental assertion in my view. I see nothing in what he wrote that warrants basically saying he is not following Jesus' teachings in the Beatitudes in this matter. I think it's entirely possible to mourn wars and to long for peace while at the same time recognizing the practices that earthly governments have historically used in wartime and to recognize that it will continue in the future as well. That's neither cynical nor callous to see the world in that light.

Maybe our doctrine that earthly government will fight forever fight wars, and that as long as the earth stands there will be wars and rumors of wars, removes any lavender glasses from our eyes. These glasses being the notion that war can be fair or clean or just, and that war can be legislated and negotiated into extinction with global treaties and the U.N.
And we sort of expect both war to be a constant on earth, and within this constant, it will be ugly and brutal and innocents will always suffer.

Yes, creation is groaning and longing to be released. But I don't think our role, as Christians, is to justify and excuse truly outrageous evil. By either side.

Stating what the Bible says about wars and rumors of wars and accepting the reality that earthly kingdoms do not play by the rules of Jesus' Kingdom is in no way justifying truly outrageous evil. I did not detect any of that in what RZehr wrote.

[Bootstrap]

I think it's entirely possible to mourn wars and to long for peace while at the same time recognizing the practices that earthly governments have historically used in wartime and to recognize that it will continue in the future as well.

But even earthly governments condemn what both Israel and Hamas are doing here.

I agree with Ken:

Hamas never had any legitimacy to begin with. Israel is tearing up what legitimacy it had by its current conduct in Gaza.

We're not talking about holding governments to Kingdom of God standards. We're talking about mass atrocities against civilians at a level that most governments do not do. And I think some of these posts let Israel off the hook, imply that these civilians don't count, that Israel can do whatever they want because this is what governments do. And implying that every Gazan civilian may be treated like a terrorist or a combatant. I assume nobody here would say that every Israeli civilian civilian may be treated that way.

In this thread, are we hungering and thirsting for righteousness, mourning what should be mourned, and looking for ways to help the victims? Are we treating the victims on both sides as human beings who deserve compassion and help? Are we calling each other to prayer?

Sure, the kingdoms of this world will not play by Kingdom of God standards. But do we, in the Kingdom of God, play by Kingdom of God standards when we observe and discuss these things? What would God want from our speech here?

[ken_sylvania]

I think it's entirely possible to mourn wars and to long for peace while at the same time recognizing the practices that earthly governments have historically used in wartime and to recognize that it will continue in the future as well.

But even earthly governments condemn what both Israel and Hamas are doing here.

I agree with Ken:

Hamas never had any legitimacy to begin with. Israel is tearing up what legitimacy it had by its current conduct in Gaza.

We're not talking about holding governments to Kingdom of God standards. We're talking about mass atrocities against civilians at a level that most governments do not do. And I think some of these posts let Israel off the hook, imply that these civilians don't count, that Israel can do whatever they want because this is what governments do. And implying that every Gazan civilian may be treated like a terrorist or a combatant. I assume nobody here would say that every Israeli civilian civilian may be treated that way.

In this thread, are we hungering and thirsting for righteousness, mourning what should be mourned, and looking for ways to help the victims? Are we treating the victims on both sides as human beings who deserve compassion and help? Are we calling each other to prayer?

Sure, the kingdoms of this world will not play by Kingdom of God standards. But do we, in the Kingdom of God, play by Kingdom of God standards when we observe and discuss these things? What would God want from our speech here?

I don't think that RZehr or GaryK are in any way letting Israel off the hook. I think what they are highlighting is that when we start to talk about "rules of engagement" or criticizing one country or another for their failure to adhere to "rules of war" it implies that it's not their participation in war that is bad, just the fact that they are "violating the rules". It implies that there is such a thing as clean, fair war when there is in fact no such thing.

[Josh]

I don't think that RZehr or GaryK are in any way letting Israel off the hook. I think what they are highlighting is that when we start to talk about "rules of engagement" or criticizing one country or another for their failure to adhere to "rules of war" it implies that it's not their participation in war that is bad, just the fact that they are "violating the rules". It implies that there is such a thing as clean, fair war when there is in fact no such thing.

I think our friend St Augustine tried to indeed define such "rules" with his concept of "just war", which in turn led to many wars that in hindsight were quite unjust. Post-Vatican II, the RCC has narrowed its belief in that down to there being almost no case for a just war.

[ken_sylvania]

We're not talking about holding governments to Kingdom of God standards. We're talking about mass atrocities against civilians at a level that most governments do not do. And I think some of these posts let Israel off the hook, imply that these civilians don't count, that Israel can do whatever they want because this is what governments do. And implying that every Gazan civilian may be treated like a terrorist or a combatant. I assume nobody here would say that every Israeli civilian civilian may be treated that way.

I am aware of nothing at all in Jesus' teachings that suggests that we ought to treat civilians and enemy soldiers differently. If we don't have any direction from Jesus and the apostles on how they ought to be treated differently, where can we go to get a justification to bomb enemy soldiers when it's not OK to bomb civilians?

You say we're talking about mass atrocities against civilians at a level that most governments do not do. Which may perhaps be the case strictly as worded, but change that phrase "do not do" to "would not do" and it's a whole different story. Time and time again violence against enemy civilians has been condoned and encouraged at the highest levels of the USA government. Even after WW2 the US was in favor of a program designed to starve the German population until it became obvious that the program was driving Germany into the arms of the Soviet Union. Then and only then did US policy change - it had nothing to do with the fact that the policy was horrific and inhumane. To me, statements about how the atrocities against Gazan civilians are so much worse than other governments would condone seem to whitewash the actions of these other countries.

[Bootstrap]

I don't think that RZehr or GaryK are in any way letting Israel off the hook. I think what they are highlighting is that when we start to talk about "rules of engagement" or criticizing one country or another for their failure to adhere to "rules of war" it implies that it's not their participation in war that is bad, just the fact that they are "violating the rules". It implies that there is such a thing as clean, fair war when there is in fact no such thing.

Here's what I struggle with. Isn't Hamas doing the same thing? They have a lot less power than Israel, so they do what terrorist groups do. And sure, there is no such thing as clean, fair terrorism either. But I don't hear people talking about Hamas and Israel the same way here. Is it somehow better when an elected government commits mass acts of terrorism?

I would never fight on any side of any war, period. I would never kill a human being. There are some kinds of killing that I do not condemn, such as a policeman killing a school shooter to stop what he is doing.

But what Israel and Hamas are doing here deserves condemnation. Against both sides.

[Bootstrap]

We're not talking about holding governments to Kingdom of God standards. We're talking about mass atrocities against civilians at a level that most governments do not do. And I think some of these posts let Israel off the hook, imply that these civilians don't count, that Israel can do whatever they want because this is what governments do. And implying that every Gazan civilian may be treated like a terrorist or a combatant. I assume nobody here would say that every Israeli civilian civilian may be treated that way.

I am aware of nothing at all in Jesus' teachings that suggests that we ought to treat civilians and enemy soldiers differently.

I don't know who "we" is in that sentence. We in the Kingdom of God will not kill anyone, civilian or soldier.

There's a sequence of posts that each misread my posts in exactly the same way. I say that even earthly governments condemn this kind of thing. Then someone says I shouldn't hold governments to the standards of Jesus. I'm not. I'm saying even Caesar plays a role in God's economy, that is spelled out in Romans 13.