Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[temporal1]

As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway.

Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.

I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.

But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most.

This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.

Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth.
BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal.

I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting.
He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.

One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation.
He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.

I want to say this as kindly as possible.
While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so.

IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be.
Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.

My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace.

The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace.
The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye.
As Christians we know that will fail.

But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.

In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.

There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now.

Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment. ..

.. And now I will try to slip back into my hole.

^^Do not like this last sentence.


This link below might add to RZehr’s post just above, P.17:

“ 'Top secret' Hamas documents show that terrorists intentionally targeted elementary schools and a youth center”
https://www.aol.com/top-secret-hamas-do ... 27766.html

- - - - - - -

i’m baffled by many of the responses in this topic so far.

When this began, the main Ukraine thread was at about 266 pages, much dedicated to unqualified Just War response from Ukraine, HEAVILY backed by the U.S. and the west. Any suggestion that Russia-Ukraine’s long history and recent history should be accounted for, that refusal of diplomacy, before and after Russia’s advance, was dismissed as “Russian sympathizers,” if not worse.

Russia-Ukraine
viewtopic.php?t=4584

Now, this.

[temporal1]

This war, and the Ukraine/Russian war, just seem like something right out of the Old Testament.
Kill everyone, cut off their heads, take women and children back to their country as captives.
It’s a bit different than the way we’ve gotten used to seeing wars being waged.

To repeat, “real” terrorists target by surprise, the unprepared and defenseless.
This is specially reprehensible and heinous. It’s intended to be.

Those who care-not for their own lives, who are willing to act individually and randomly, can do terrific damage.
It remains to be seen how widespread the damage will be. Will there be incidents in the U.S./Canada? Unknown.
The potential is definitely present.

[temporal1]

But alas, it is an organization they helped to create. If they followed through with Oslo quickly and fairly, my contention would be that Hamas would not have become the predominant force.

But we shall never know.

i don’t recall your input on Ukraine, but, i think similar could be said about that awful situation.
“We shall never know” ..

[appleman2006]

I agree with RZehr that the average guy fighting and possibly even the lower level Hamas leadership think of this as a religious conflict but I still think they are being used along with their religion by the real brokers of power. For the real leaders religion is very secondary in many ways but a great way to control and motivate people. That Hamas has connections to the Muslim brotherhood group in Egypt is certainly a fact and why they are so distrusted by Egypt.
Someone just suggested that Egypt should just allow Gaza residents to come across their border. The problem is they do not want Hamas influencing the radicals already in their country. I am sure if people could prove they have no Hamas affiliation they could get out easier but that is very hard to do. Some have suggested that some of those that were coming to Israel daily on work permits may have actually been misusing their privileges and helping plan for this attack.
Solving these issues is always easier from a lazy boy chair.

[MaxPC]

I agree with RZehr that the average guy fighting and possibly even the lower level Hamas leadership think of this as a religious conflict but I still think they are being used along with their religion by the real brokers of power. For the real leaders religion is very secondary in many ways but a great way to control and motivate people. That Hamas has connections to the Muslim brotherhood group in Egypt is certainly a fact and why they are so distrusted by Egypt.
Someone just suggested that Egypt should just allow Gaza residents to come across their border. The problem is they do not want Hamas influencing the radicals already in their country. I am sure if people could prove they have no Hamas affiliation they could get out easier but that is very hard to do. Some have suggested that some of those that were coming to Israel daily on work permits may have actually been misusing their privileges and helping plan for this attack.
Solving these issues is always easier from a lazy boy chair.

Likewise and amen.

[Robert]

This is not really a parody, but pretty much the truth.

[MaxPC]

As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway. Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.

I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.
But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most. This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.
Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth. BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal. I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting. He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.
One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation. He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.
I want to say this as kindly as possible. While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so. IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be. Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.
My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace. The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace. The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye. As Christians we know that will fail. But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.
In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.
There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now. Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment.

And now I will try to slip back into my hole.

I share your thoughts to the letter, Appleman. You and I both have watched this drama through the decades of our lives and though we have not spoken nor met, we are quite alike in our assessments of this tragic situation.

[Ken]

I agree with RZehr that the average guy fighting and possibly even the lower level Hamas leadership think of this as a religious conflict but I still think they are being used along with their religion by the real brokers of power. For the real leaders religion is very secondary in many ways but a great way to control and motivate people. That Hamas has connections to the Muslim brotherhood group in Egypt is certainly a fact and why they are so distrusted by Egypt.
Someone just suggested that Egypt should just allow Gaza residents to come across their border. The problem is they do not want Hamas influencing the radicals already in their country. I am sure if people could prove they have no Hamas affiliation they could get out easier but that is very hard to do. Some have suggested that some of those that were coming to Israel daily on work permits may have actually been misusing their privileges and helping plan for this attack.
Solving these issues is always easier from a lazy boy chair.

You can say the same thing about any time religion and politics intersect. Such as, for example, how GOP power brokers cynically use and exploit evangelical Christians to control and motivate people.

I'm not sure how you sort out which which expressions of faith are legitimate and which are not.

Nor do I think you can possibly sort out who is sympathetic to Hamas and who is not. It's not like Hamas issues laminated membership cards. How would you, for example, go through the state of New Mexico, which has the same population as Gaza, and sort out who is sympathetic to Republicans and who isn't?

[temporal1]

More from Ben Shapiro:

They're Here / 1hr 4min

Description:
Hamas sympathizers rally to support their favorite terrorists on campuses and in major cities;
the pseudo-sophisticates in politics and the media start pressuring Israel to stop crushing Hamas in the Gaza Strip;
and we ask where the moderate Palestinians are.

Friends of the Israel Defense Forces (FIDF): https://www.fidf.org/

Israel Rescue: http://IsraelRescue.org

American Friends of Magen David Adom: http://Afmda.org

International Fellowship of Christians & Jews: http://IFCJ.org

The Ari Fuld Project: http://AriFuld.org

Ep.1828

appleman:
This was Toronto not Gaza.

Ben S. included similar clips from several U.S. universities.

[appleman2006]

I agree with RZehr that the average guy fighting and possibly even the lower level Hamas leadership think of this as a religious conflict but I still think they are being used along with their religion by the real brokers of power. For the real leaders religion is very secondary in many ways but a great way to control and motivate people. That Hamas has connections to the Muslim brotherhood group in Egypt is certainly a fact and why they are so distrusted by Egypt.
Someone just suggested that Egypt should just allow Gaza residents to come across their border. The problem is they do not want Hamas influencing the radicals already in their country. I am sure if people could prove they have no Hamas affiliation they could get out easier but that is very hard to do. Some have suggested that some of those that were coming to Israel daily on work permits may have actually been misusing their privileges and helping plan for this attack.
Solving these issues is always easier from a lazy boy chair.

You can say the same thing about any time religion and politics intersect. Such as, for example, how GOP power brokers cynically use and exploit evangelical Christians to control and motivate people.

I'm not sure how you sort out which which expressions of faith are legitimate and which are not.

Nor do I think you can possibly sort out who is sympathetic to Hamas and who is not. It's not like Hamas issues laminated membership cards. How would you, for example, go through the state of New Mexico, which has the same population as Gaza, and sort out who is sympathetic to Republicans and who isn't?

I agree. That is my point. While there are I am sure many in Gaza that do not support Hamas I suspect that there are many that say they do simply out of fear as to what might happen to them if they do not. It is hard for most people to go against the vocal majority especially hard when there is an added threat of violence.
As an aside I think we would all do well to spend sometime over the next day or two asking God to protect the manyinnocent lives that are so vulnerable right now. That includes those being held hostage, many women and children and probably even some very young Hamas boys who have been indoctrinated at such a young age they are still barely accountable. It is all so tragic.