appleman2006 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:11 pm As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway.
Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.
I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.
But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most.
This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.
Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth.
BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal.
I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting.
He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.
One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation.
He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.
I want to say this as kindly as possible.
While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so.
IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be.
Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.
My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace.
The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace.
The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye.
As Christians we know that will fail.
But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.
In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.
There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now.
Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment. ..
^^Do not like this last sentence... And now I will try to slip back into my hole.
This link below might add to RZehr’s post just above, P.17:
“ 'Top secret' Hamas documents show that terrorists intentionally targeted elementary schools and a youth center”
https://www.aol.com/top-secret-hamas-do ... 27766.html
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i’m baffled by many of the responses in this topic so far.
When this began, the main Ukraine thread was at about 266 pages, much dedicated to unqualified Just War response from Ukraine, HEAVILY backed by the U.S. and the west. Any suggestion that Russia-Ukraine’s long history and recent history should be accounted for, that refusal of diplomacy, before and after Russia’s advance, was dismissed as “Russian sympathizers,” if not worse.
Russia-Ukraine
viewtopic.php?t=4584
Now, this.