Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[HondurasKeiser]

There's a difference between a "Gazan" and a "full-on supporter of Hamas", and I think that's an important distinction, just like there are many Americans who don't endorse everything the U.S. government, military, or Republican or Democratic parties do.

You seem to keep moving the goalposts and I don't understand why. Some Gazans don't support Hamas and some do. It's really that simple. People that support bad people are themselves bad people and complicit in the actions of the bad actors. If you support an organization that uses barbaric tactics and genocide you have blood on your hands.

I think I will be done arguing this point because I for the life of me see can't understand your weddedness to the idea of letting supporters of evil off the hook.

Gaza has no access to its own coastline or freedom of navigation in the sea. Israel blockades it and controls everything that goes in and out.
Likewise, Gaza's airspace is blockaded. Gaza has no freedom to conduct any aviation and the Israelis bombed the daylights out of their airport, which used to be the only regularly used airport in Palestinian controlled territory.
In such a blockaided, sieged environment, an organisation like Hamas thrives.

I'm not entirely clear on your position. In a previous post you seemed to suggest that Israel should in fact be using a wall, control of airspace and aid (all things they've been doing for years) in order to pacify the population and turn them against Hamas.

Now you're saying that doing those things is what causes Hamas to thrive?

Gaza alone annually receives billions in aid from dozens of countries, including Israel. Much of that aid seems to be siphoned off by Hamas and redirected to military purposes. In a sense Israel is giving Hamas the gun that it turns around and uses on Israel.

How would giving more aid dismantle Hamas?

Yes, things like Iron Dome are a good thing.

Well that's the thing of it. Iron Dome was built to mitigate and neutralize the novel threat of rocket launches into Israel, and it worked very well for a very long time. It still does. Hamas though, seeing how well it worked, evolved their tactics to find new ways of killing Jews. Israel could go back to the drawing board and find novel ways to ward off these new types of attacks but it seems, Hamas being Hamas, they will simply find new ways around those mitigation strategies.

I don't see how that's a tenable situation for Israel. Nor do I see how it's reasonable to expect that Israel subject itself to a certain number of deaths and kidnappings every year as it's price to pay for simply existing.

I don't think any of us think what Hamas is doing is right. They should stop what they are doing. The question is, is it okay to justify doing the same thing back?

This seems uncharacteristically naive of you, Josh. If Hamas stopped what they were doing they would cease to be Hamas. Their entire raison d'etre is the murdering of Jews and the annihilation of Israel. They have no reason, no rationale and no incentive to stop. They are funded and encouraged and trained by Iran. They teach their children through cartoons, school curriculum and "summer camps" that it's good to kill Jews, to give their lives for the destruction of Israel and how to fire weapons and kidnap Israelis.

Hamas will not be going away on its own any time soon.

I think the "decapitation of babies" thing is largely emotive (there is, as of yet, still no evidence this actually happened). If we want to have a grown-up discussion about this, it starts with not giving into violent rhetoric that is then used to justify why killing Gazan children and babies is okay.

Fair enough, the reports I saw from CBS, FOX, the Jerusalem Post and a local outlet here in Honduras all stated the claim as though it were confirmed. I was under that impression as a result.

It seems indisputable though that Hamas used tactics like: rape, kidnapping, the targeting of civilians, massacring families in their homes, shooting babies, beheading soldiers, and burning people. Tactics that are barbaric, meant to demoralize and notably not used by Israel.

So my question still stands:

How do you suggest Israel deal with an organization bent on their destruction

[temporal1]

^^not to interfere with HK+Josh.
i appreciate HK pointing out the barbarism that defines terrorism.
In my view, 9-11-2001 was a wake-up call for many in the U.S., that, yes, there are those who live+breathe evil toward others, that care-not for innocents, that revel in barbarism.

They intend to do harm, the more the better, the bloodier the better.
Not everyone longs for peace: 100% anathema for Christians.

- - - - - - -

To add to this other aspect, profiteering:

Republicans have shown themselves to be rather bloodthirsty and to invade a country on false pretenses (wmd that never existed) and cause a million deaths.

I don’t think collective punishment of everyone who voted for Bush in 2000 would be the right thing to do, though.

if i recall .. bush had bipartisan (aka career politician) support, and, the MIC generally enjoys this phenom.
as the current admin demonstrates.

More importantly, no one is advocating for Collective Punishment.

Disclaimer:
i do not care for Russell Brand’s (often) coarse style. Evidently, some do.

Israel vs Palestine: What They’re Not Telling You / -24min

Description:
As tensions escalate between Israel and the Hamas group, US congressional leaders have been investing in military-related stocks.

So who benefits from this war, and how can we ever trust their response to this or any other conflict?

If you can get past his coarse presentation, he makes important points.

[appleman2006]

As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway. Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.

I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.
But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most. This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.
Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth. BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal. I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting. He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.
One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation. He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.
I want to say this as kindly as possible. While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so. IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be. Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.
My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace. The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace. The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye. As Christians we know that will fail. But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.
In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.
There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now. Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment.

And now I will try to slip back into my hole.

[silentreader]

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767951

[Ken]

As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway. Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.

I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.
But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most. This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.
Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth. BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal. I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting. He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.
One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation. He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.
I want to say this as kindly as possible. While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so. IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be. Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.
My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace. The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace. The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye. As Christians we know that will fail. But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.
In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.
There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now. Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment.

And now I will try to slip back into my hole.

I think you are wrong about this not being a religious conflict.

I think at the outset (1940s to 1970s) this was more of a political conflict between Arabs and Jews. You had secular Arab governments clashing with a secular Jewish government in various wars and conflicts. And the PLO itself during that time was not particularly religious. Yasser Arafat was a nationalist and a socialist and not any sort of conservative religious type.

Since the 1990s with the intervention of Iran into that part of the middle east, the conflict has become much more religious on both sides. Iran, which is NOT an Arab nation has inserted itself into the region in Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine via Hamas. Suicide bombings and other signs of religious fanaticism have been on the rise. You have the rise of religious extremism in Saudi Arabia in the form of Wahhabism that also led to Al Qaeda. Hamas, as opposed to the PLO and Fatah is an overtly religious organization with roots in the Muslim Brotherhood that preaches a particular strain of conservative Islam that seems frankly pretty new to the region. On the other side, Israel and especially the settler movement, has been drifting into a more overtly religious approach. The settler movement of today is the religious polar opposite of the more socialist and secular kibbutz movement of decades past.

I think what we have are simultaneous political and religious conflicts. And in recent years, the religious conflict is taking the forefront on both sides which is making resolution of the political conflict more difficult if not impossible.

[Judas Maccabeus]

As someone who has followed the Palestine/Israel thing for most of my life the events of the past week make me very very sad.
I am not sure I have much to add. Rzehr and HK have stated my basic opinions on the subject quite well but here goes anyway. Because sometimes being silent is just wrong.

I am generally very slow to take sides in issues that pertain to conflict between worldly governments. Governments do what governments do and I am thankful that I live in a time when even most worldly governments have agreed to certain rules and limitations even amidst conflict.
But as some have already pointed out there are several things that make this conflict unique and different than most. This was again made very real to me when I saw people immediately after the attack, on the streets of Toronto marching and yelling and chanting "FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA". Not just a few people but 100's. Over and over again. The hatred was simply oozing from their bodies. This was Toronto not Gaza. These people had no reason to hate the Jews. But they obviously do.
Hamas' goal is as has already been stated to eliminate Israel and it's people off the face of the earth. BTW religion has almost nothing to do with it. It is just being used as a tool by those that hate, to achieve their goal. I will admit that much of my thinking has been arrived at by reading and listening to what the author of the "Son of Hamas" has to say on the subject. He is a Palestinian that is the son of a co-founder of Hamas and lived a very privileged life in that setting. He gave all that up because of the lies and hypocrisy that he saw within the movement.
One thing he states that I think is very relevant to this conversation. He states that he believes that even if Hamas achieved their goal of eliminating every Jew on the face of the earth that there still would not be peace. They would then find a reason to fight with each other.
I want to say this as kindly as possible. While I think almost all of you do not claim to be arguing for moral equivalency here, a few of you come very close to actually doing so. IMO now is not the time to point out Israel's wrongs of the past whatever they might be. Israel does not use it's women and children as human shields. It does not intentionally go in and behead babies and rape women in cold blood. If any of it's soldiers would be caught doing so they would be subjected to years of imprisonment. Even as I write this they are trying to convince people to move to the southern half of the strip giving them 24 hours to do so. The people massacred last Saturday should have been that lucky.
My heart does go out to the people of Gaza. I wish for them peace. The only lasting peace that comes from following after the prince of peace and the only one that can give peace. The powers of this world have only worldly tools to their disposal. The only thing they know or understand is an eye for an eye. As Christians we know that will fail. But please let us also as Christians be very careful about blaming the victims whoever they are.
In 2001 I chastised an Kurdish friend of mine when he made the comment a few days after 9/11 that he felt the USA kind of had it coming to them. I do the same to anyone now that feels that Israel deserved this in anyway.
There will be a time in the future to again criticize Israel and some of it's polices but that time is not now. Oh and by the way those of you that liken Israel to an apartheid state; the green Prince or Son of Hamas has something to say about that as well. He strongly disagrees with that sentiment.

And now I will try to slip back into my hole.

I think you are wrong about this not being a religious conflict.

I think at the outset (1940s to 1970s) this was more of a political conflict between Arabs and Jews. You had secular Arab governments clashing with a secular Jewish government in various wars and conflicts. And the PLO itself during that time was not particularly religious. Yasser Arafat was a nationalist and a socialist and not any sort of conservative religious type.

Since the 1990s with the intervention of Iran into that part of the middle east, the conflict has become much more religious on both sides. Iran, which is NOT an Arab nation has inserted itself into the region in Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine via Hamas. Suicide bombings and other signs of religious fanaticism have been on the rise. You have the rise of religious extremism in Saudi Arabia in the form of Wahhabism that also led to Al Qaeda. Hamas, as opposed to the PLO and Fatah is an overtly religious organization with roots in the Muslim Brotherhood that preaches a particular strain of conservative Islam that seems frankly pretty new to the region. On the other side, Israel and especially the settler movement, has been drifting into a more overtly religious approach. The settler movement of today is the religious polar opposite of the more socialist and secular kibbutz movement of decades past.

I think what we have are a simultaneous political and religious conflict. And in recent years, the religious conflict is taking the forefront on both sides which is making political settlement more difficult if not impossible.

I think you are getting it. The failure of pan Arab secularism (most easily understood as the ideology of Nassarism in Egypt and Bathism elsewhere) to deliver Arab unity resulting in a Palestinian homeland, lead directly to the Islamist movement we now see as predominant in the Arab world. This shift began to manifest after the defeat in the 1973 Yom Kipper war, and the defeat of Palestinian forces in Black September in Jordan. Secularism had failed and the ideology of Sayyid Qutb became predominant. It manifests most notably in the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is simply a part. If you wish to understand this movement reading Milestones by Qutb is a start. His rejection of secularism as an ideology could best be understood by reading “The America I have seen in the scale of Human values “ by Qutb. Both are available online, the latter by the CIA.

Pan Arabism could negotiate. Qutibism cannot. Israel failed to take the risks of peace when it could. Don’t get me started on the shift in Israel from a secular democratic state to the religious one that is now emerging. In effect the settlers are almost as bad as Hamas, both achieve their goals by violence. Only the scale is different.

[Judas Maccabeus]

There's a difference between a "Gazan" and a "full-on supporter of Hamas", and I think that's an important distinction, just like there are many Americans who don't endorse everything the U.S. government, military, or Republican or Democratic parties do.

You seem to keep moving the goalposts and I don't understand why. Some Gazans don't support Hamas and some do. It's really that simple. People that support bad people are themselves bad people and complicit in the actions of the bad actors. If you support an organization that uses barbaric tactics and genocide you have blood on your hands.

I think I will be done arguing this point because I for the life of me see can't understand your weddedness to the idea of letting supporters of evil off the hook.

Gaza has no access to its own coastline or freedom of navigation in the sea. Israel blockades it and controls everything that goes in and out.
Likewise, Gaza's airspace is blockaded. Gaza has no freedom to conduct any aviation and the Israelis bombed the daylights out of their airport, which used to be the only regularly used airport in Palestinian controlled territory.
In such a blockaided, sieged environment, an organisation like Hamas thrives.

I'm not entirely clear on your position. In a previous post you seemed to suggest that Israel should in fact be using a wall, control of airspace and aid (all things they've been doing for years) in order to pacify the population and turn them against Hamas.

Now you're saying that doing those things is what causes Hamas to thrive?

Gaza alone annually receives billions in aid from dozens of countries, including Israel. Much of that aid seems to be siphoned off by Hamas and redirected to military purposes. In a sense Israel is giving Hamas the gun that it turns around and uses on Israel.

How would giving more aid dismantle Hamas?

Yes, things like Iron Dome are a good thing.

Well that's the thing of it. Iron Dome was built to mitigate and neutralize the novel threat of rocket launches into Israel, and it worked very well for a very long time. It still does. Hamas though, seeing how well it worked, evolved their tactics to find new ways of killing Jews. Israel could go back to the drawing board and find novel ways to ward off these new types of attacks but it seems, Hamas being Hamas, they will simply find new ways around those mitigation strategies.

I don't see how that's a tenable situation for Israel. Nor do I see how it's reasonable to expect that Israel subject itself to a certain number of deaths and kidnappings every year as it's price to pay for simply existing.

I don't think any of us think what Hamas is doing is right. They should stop what they are doing. The question is, is it okay to justify doing the same thing back?

This seems uncharacteristically naive of you, Josh. If Hamas stopped what they were doing they would cease to be Hamas. Their entire raison d'etre is the murdering of Jews and the annihilation of Israel. They have no reason, no rationale and no incentive to stop. They are funded and encouraged and trained by Iran. They teach their children through cartoons, school curriculum and "summer camps" that it's good to kill Jews, to give their lives for the destruction of Israel and how to fire weapons and kidnap Israelis.

Hamas will not be going away on its own any time soon.

I think the "decapitation of babies" thing is largely emotive (there is, as of yet, still no evidence this actually happened). If we want to have a grown-up discussion about this, it starts with not giving into violent rhetoric that is then used to justify why killing Gazan children and babies is okay.

Fair enough, the reports I saw from CBS, FOX, the Jerusalem Post and a local outlet here in Honduras all stated the claim as though it were confirmed. I was under that impression as a result.

It seems indisputable though that Hamas used tactics like: rape, kidnapping, the targeting of civilians, massacring families in their homes, shooting babies, beheading soldiers, and burning people. Tactics that are barbaric, meant to demoralize and notably not used by Israel.

So my question still stands:

How do you suggest Israel deal with an organization bent on their destruction

But alas, it is an organization they helped to create. If they followed through with Oslo quickly and fairly, my contention would be that Hamas would not have become the predominant force. But we shall never know.

[RZehr]

It certainly is a religious war to the foot soldiers of Hamas. Of course the leaders of Hamas are like all other leaders, in that they aren’t going to risk their lives - only lives of others. Their lives are of course, MUCH to important.

Here is what senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said in an interview that aired on Russia Today TV on Oct. 8.

"The Israelis are known to love life. We, on the other hand, sacrifice ourselves. We consider our dead to be martyrs. The thing any Palestinian desires the most is to be martyred for the sake of Allah, defending his land," he continued.

https://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-off ... 26321.html

Here is more of what he said in the interview:

"In the past couple of years, Hamas has adopted a 'rational' approach. It did not go into any war and did not join the Islamic Jihad in its recent battle," senior Hamas official Ali Baraka said in an interview that aired on Russia Today TV on Oct. 8.

The interviewer interjected, "But all this was part of Hamas's strategy in preparing for this attack."

"Of course," Baraka said, according to the translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute, a nonprofit press monitoring and analysis organization co-founded by a former Israeli military intelligence officer and an Israeli American political scientist. "We made them think that Hamas was busy with governing Gaza, and that it wanted to focus on the 2.5 million Palestinians [in Gaza], and has abandoned the resistance altogether."

"All the while, under the table, Hamas was preparing for this big attack," Baraka continued. "The rockets of the resistance cover all of Palestine. Where would [Netanyahu] take [the Israelis who were attacked]? To Tel Aviv? We bombed Tel Aviv on the very first day of the attack. Does he want to take them to the Galilee? The northern front – with Lebanon – has opened today. The Galilee is no longer safe for the Zionist enemy. We can bomb the Galilee from inside occupied Palestine."

And how were they making these rockets? By using water pipes. They complain about Israel’s blockades, and how plead for more humanitarian aid, but they did up the water pipes and make rockets with them, exacerbating the who problem.

The European Union helped to build more than 30 miles of water pipelines for Palestinians despite Hamas terrorists boasting of their ability to forge an arsenal of home-made rockets from pipes.

Brussels has poured almost €100 million into pipeline projects in territories controlled by the Islamist group over the last decade, a Telegraph analysis of the bloc’s foreign aid found.

The revelation comes amid a mounting international row over future handouts to Gaza amid fears humanitarian donations could fall into the hands of Hamas.

EU foreign ministers on Tuesday night held emergency talks over aid worth €295 million a year to Palestine after the European Commission announced the donations had been placed under review in response to the terror attack on Israel.

Josep Borrell, the EU’s chief diplomat, announced on Tuesday night that aid to Palestinians would continue, meaning €218 million more will be dispersed to the Palestinian people by the end of this year.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... s-rockets/

All while Hamas boasts about using the water pipes for rockets:

[RZehr]

Documents labeled “top secret” in Arabic show that Hamas had targeted elementary schools and a youth center in Kfar Sa’ad, an Israeli kibbutz, to kill victims, take hostages, and transport them to Gaza, according to NBC News.

The plans seem to be instructions for two squads of militants to break into villages and attack civilian regions, including areas where children could be located. One of the pages appeared to be a plot for “Combat unit 1” to “contain the new Da’at school” and “Combat unit 2” to “collect hostages,” “search the Bnei Akiva youth center,” and “search the old Da’at school,” NBC reports. Another page said to “kill as many as possible.”

Israeli emergency responders discovered the directions on the bodies of Hamas terrorists. Officials who viewed the documents told the outlet that Hamas had methodically collected intelligence on each kibbutz and had schemes to find women and children, contradicting Hamas’ declarations that they don’t kill kids. An anonymous Israel Defense Forces official said, “I've never seen this kind of detailed planning.”
https://www.yahoo.com/news/top-secret-h ... 36563.html

[RZehr]

This war, and the Ukraine/Russian war, just seem like something right out of the Old Testament.
Kill everyone, cut off their heads, take women and children back to their country as captives.
It’s a bit different than the way we’ve gotten used to seeing wars being waged.