Cultural Separation from Parents

[ohio jones]

Matthew being called Matt is just not pertinent to this conversation.

And even the more extreme cases would be easily solved if the records would have a "goes by" field.

As to using the wrong restroom, yes absolutely the parents should be involved. That's kinda the whole point of the thread.

[RZehr]

Matthew being called Matt is just not pertinent to this conversation.

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

And in this day and age if you as a teacher decided to only use student's formal given names and/or refused to accommodate the occasional LGBT kid with their preferred name request it would take about 3 hours for the word to spread around the school via social media and half your students would hate you and think you a bigot even before they arrived in your class. And due to the telephone game effect the story would expand and get embellished until it is unrecognizable. And then there goes your one opportunity to make a good first impression. And the rest of your year is going to be a hostile battle that you won't win. If students want to make your life miserable, they very much can and there is very little you can do about it. If they are clever and motivated enough they can even get you fired.

I understand and do not disagree about the pickle this places public school teachers in. But you are still in the weeds, in the details, and don’t want to talk about the forest, just the trees. The answer may simply be that teachers may need to find a new job. It is hardly unconventional that Christians have had career options limited because of their faith. We don’t go get a bartending job, and then try to influence those in that sphere. We don’t even do many retail jobs because of vice products and working on Sunday requirements. We self censor our own economic options and opportunities.
I mean, some of us gave up on public schools on principle and at great ongoing expense, a few generations ago. And they’ve only become more incompatible and hostile to Christian principles since then.
Come out from among them, and be ye separate.

[Nomad]

Matthew being called Matt is just not pertinent to this conversation.

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

And in this day and age if you as a teacher decided to only use student's formal given names and/or refused to accommodate the occasional LGBT kid with their preferred name request it would take about 3 hours for the word to spread around the school via social media and half your students would hate you and think you a bigot even before they arrived in your class. And due to the telephone game effect the story would expand and get embellished until it is unrecognizable. And then there goes your one opportunity to make a good first impression. And the rest of your year is going to be a hostile battle that you won't win. If students want to make your life miserable, they very much can and there is very little you can do about it. If they are clever and motivated enough they can even get you fired.

You pretty much summed up the issue of our current sad state of affairs in the United States. Instead of being able to find help for some of these kids who have been fed by the popular culture around them that their gender is fluid and they can "choose" their own sex, making them prey to gender dysphoria. At a stage of life when they are most vulnerable and influenced by sin, confusion, and low self-esteem. When the young are trying to find acceptance and thus making them sitting ducks to fall into a trap of the wicked culture around them. Which then makes them make ill decisions that will forever effect their lives while only in their teen years. We can no longer help them due to the fact that we will now be labeled "bigots".

When the reality is we care about them and want to show them their is a better way than fitting into the society around them.

[Ken]

Matthew being called Matt is just not pertinent to this conversation.

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

And in this day and age if you as a teacher decided to only use student's formal given names and/or refused to accommodate the occasional LGBT kid with their preferred name request it would take about 3 hours for the word to spread around the school via social media and half your students would hate you and think you a bigot even before they arrived in your class. And due to the telephone game effect the story would expand and get embellished until it is unrecognizable. And then there goes your one opportunity to make a good first impression. And the rest of your year is going to be a hostile battle that you won't win. If students want to make your life miserable, they very much can and there is very little you can do about it. If they are clever and motivated enough they can even get you fired.

You pretty much summed up the issue of our current sad state of affairs in the United States. Instead of being able to find help for some of these kids who have been fed by the popular culture around them that their gender is fluid and they can "choose" their own sex, making them prey to gender dysphoria. At a stage of life when they are most vulnerable and influenced by sin, confusion, and low self-esteem. When the young are trying to find acceptance and thus making them sitting ducks to fall into a trap of the wicked culture around them. Which then makes them make ill decisions that will forever effect their lives while only in their teen years. We can no longer help them due to the fact that we will now be labeled "bigots".

When the reality is we care about them and want to show them their is a better way than fitting into the society around them.

Actually, kids in this society are really fed a hyper-sexualized diet from kindergarten onwards that is omnipresent 24/7 and relentless. In media, retail, sports, everywhere you look. But somehow it is only the tiny percentage of kids who don't go with the flow that we have a conniption over?






There are gay kids and trans kids in our society too. There always has been and always will be. But generally speaking they are who they are despite our culture, not because of it. If all you want is acceptance it is a whole lot easier to conform. Even today.

The dictionary definition of a bigot is: "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." If that describes you then you are a bigot, if doesn't then you aren't.

[ken_sylvania]

When the school makes a policy that says certain things are, by policy, to be hidden from the parents they reveal that they have an agenda.

The NYT story above doesn't say that the high school was hiding anything from the parent. They just weren't reporting home on their child's social life. Just like most high schools don't generally report back to the parent about all the other details of their children's social life. As I pointed out, there are a bazillion things that high school kids do that some parents might want to know about. Schools aren't in the business of policing every aspect of kid's social lives. We don't live in a police state and schools do not monitor every aspect of student's lives.

The article made 3 claims. The kid was using a different name, was using different pronouns, and wanted to use the boy's bathroom.

With respect to names. Students use different names all the time. It is trivial and accommodated. No one really cares. Pronouns are rarely an issue since they are only relevant when speaking about a student in the 3rd person and frankly that rarely ever happens in a school setting. The boy's bathroom thing is the only thing that seems a policy stretch in this story. From my point of view, letting kids use an opposite sex bathroom should probably only be a formal accommodation that the school allows after some sort of administrative process involving parents, psychologists, counselors, etc. to verify that the student is, indeed, legitimately transgender and not just goofing around. Just like you would do for any other official educational accommodation like allowing extra time on tests or a seeing eye dog in class or whatever. At my school the few kids who are transgender normally use one of the solo staff bathrooms in the office where they have to go past a gauntlet of secretaries and around an office hallway to get to a set of solo staff bathrooms that they use. Does the school call home if some kid wants to use one? Honestly I don't know but I kind of doubt it. It is just a bathroom and kids gotta pee. So what?

We are starting a new school year and I teach kids that same age (15) this year (mostly 9th and 10th graders). I have about 150 new students and I'm still getting all their names sorted out and the attendance rosters adjusted to reflect the names that they actually use. Out of those 150 students, probably at least 35 have let me know that they prefer some other name than what is on their official school roster. I have not made 35 calls home to let parents know that their students are going by different names than are what are on their birth certificate. It is the routine thing that teachers do every year.

For example, I have a boy named Angel who goes by Kai (his middle name)
I have a girl named Chastity who goes by Chas
I have a boy named Mauricio who goes by Moe
I have a boy named Jhanuvhia (laotian name) who goes by J. HIs last name is even longer and more unpronounceable.
I have a Nicholas who goes by Nick, a Matthew who goes by Matt and a Mateo who goes by Teo
I have a girl named Milaya who goes by Lilly
I have a girl named Ximena who goes by Mia
I have a girl named Alexandrina who goes by Alex
I have a boy named Aleksandr who also goes by Alex
I have a girl names Alexandra who goes by Lexi
I have a boy named Maxim who goes by Max
I have a girl named Maxina who also goes by Max
I have two McKenzie's in one class, one goes by Zen
I have an Ana Magdalena who goes by Maggie

and two dozen more kids who go by something other than what is on their birth certificate. Do I care? No. I use whatever name they tell me they wish to be called in class. Which is usually what their friends call them. I certainly don't call home to report to parents that their kid is using some different name in class.

If schools are giving out hormones or hormone blockers without the knowledge of consent of parents that would be an issue. And that doesn't actually happen. If they are accommodating a student's request to go by a different name than what is on the birth certificate? Who cares. That happens hundreds of times at every school in the country.

I don't know what NYT article you're referring to - didn't read it and wasn't commenting on it. I have no idea if it's an article discussing a school policy.
You responded to my comment with an epistle that is quite unrelated to what I said.
My question to you is, does the school where you teach have a policy that says that, if a child requests to be called by a nickname at school, the teacher dare not mention the fact to the child's parent?

[ken_sylvania]

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

And in this day and age if you as a teacher decided to only use student's formal given names and/or refused to accommodate the occasional LGBT kid with their preferred name request it would take about 3 hours for the word to spread around the school via social media and half your students would hate you and think you a bigot even before they arrived in your class. And due to the telephone game effect the story would expand and get embellished until it is unrecognizable. And then there goes your one opportunity to make a good first impression. And the rest of your year is going to be a hostile battle that you won't win. If students want to make your life miserable, they very much can and there is very little you can do about it. If they are clever and motivated enough they can even get you fired.

You pretty much summed up the issue of our current sad state of affairs in the United States. Instead of being able to find help for some of these kids who have been fed by the popular culture around them that their gender is fluid and they can "choose" their own sex, making them prey to gender dysphoria. At a stage of life when they are most vulnerable and influenced by sin, confusion, and low self-esteem. When the young are trying to find acceptance and thus making them sitting ducks to fall into a trap of the wicked culture around them. Which then makes them make ill decisions that will forever effect their lives while only in their teen years. We can no longer help them due to the fact that we will now be labeled "bigots".

When the reality is we care about them and want to show them their is a better way than fitting into the society around them.

Actually, kids in this society are really fed a hyper-sexualized diet from kindergarten onwards that is omnipresent 24/7 and relentless. In media, retail, sports, everywhere you look. But somehow it is only the tiny percentage of kids who don't go with the flow that we have a conniption over?

That is the really weird thing about it. When somebody posts about the trash and bad influence of TV, Youtube, or the violent video games you think it's no big deal, but as soon as they mention the damaging effects of the normalization of identity confusion suddenly you get your knickers all in a twist. Conservative Mennonites have been preaching and teaching about the evil influence of TV, the loose morals of Hollywood, and the damaging effect it's having on our nation ever since TV first came out. They were wayyyy ahead of their time in recognizing the power dynamics and sexual misconduct among actors that everyone else wanted to "not see". They're not breaking character to decry the influence society is having on the self-identities of impressionable children and young people - just for some reason you feel the need to pretend this is the only issue they speak to.

[Ken]

You responded to my comment with an epistle that is quite unrelated to what I said.
My question to you is, does the school where you teach have a policy that says that, if a child requests to be called by a nickname at school, the teacher dare not mention the fact to the child's parent?

No such policy at all.

We are encouraged to be in contact with parents and constantly hectored because we don't do enough of it.

The few times in the last 15 years when I have had the school counselors come to me with information about a particular student who was transgender, it was a students who was accompanied by thick files with specific accommodations that were negotiated through formal meetings between parents, student, and school administration. And the focus was on whether you were accommodating the student or creating a hostile classroom. Which might not be due to something you do overtly, but something you don't do like nip bullying in the bud. In every one of those cases the parents were not only in the loop, they were driving the loop and watching to make sure you weren't showing bias towards their child. That is what it is really like to be a teacher these days. You have dozens of parents looking over your shoulder making sure you haven't slighted their child in some imaginary or real way, or just jockeying to gain their child some advantage. Especially if you are teaching in an affluent area.

I have had other students pass through my classes over the years that were not gender conforming in various ways but with no information or contact from the school administration about them. I just treat them like any other student. I have students less than 1 hour a day for 180 days. My focus is on biology or chemistry, not where they are on the fluid gender spectrum. I certainly don't call home if a boy has on makeup or a girl has short hair, no makeup and slouches around in a hoodie and army boots. I have a long enough list of parents to call because their kid has missed class 27 times in the past 2 months and is failing. Parents have their kids 10-times more than I do. They should parent them and not blame the schools because their kids don't trust them enough to talk to them.

[Nomad]

It is absolutely pertinent.

You either accommodate students in their wish to go by a different name or you don't. You don't just accommodate only the students who's preferred name is one that you personally approve of because it conforms to your own personal notion of what is gender appropriate. That would be treating your students in a highly unequitable manner.

And in this day and age if you as a teacher decided to only use student's formal given names and/or refused to accommodate the occasional LGBT kid with their preferred name request it would take about 3 hours for the word to spread around the school via social media and half your students would hate you and think you a bigot even before they arrived in your class. And due to the telephone game effect the story would expand and get embellished until it is unrecognizable. And then there goes your one opportunity to make a good first impression. And the rest of your year is going to be a hostile battle that you won't win. If students want to make your life miserable, they very much can and there is very little you can do about it. If they are clever and motivated enough they can even get you fired.

You pretty much summed up the issue of our current sad state of affairs in the United States. Instead of being able to find help for some of these kids who have been fed by the popular culture around them that their gender is fluid and they can "choose" their own sex, making them prey to gender dysphoria. At a stage of life when they are most vulnerable and influenced by sin, confusion, and low self-esteem. When the young are trying to find acceptance and thus making them sitting ducks to fall into a trap of the wicked culture around them. Which then makes them make ill decisions that will forever effect their lives while only in their teen years. We can no longer help them due to the fact that we will now be labeled "bigots".

When the reality is we care about them and want to show them their is a better way than fitting into the society around them.

Actually, kids in this society are really fed a hyper-sexualized diet from kindergarten onwards that is omnipresent 24/7 and relentless. In media, retail, sports, everywhere you look. But somehow it is only the tiny percentage of kids who don't go with the flow that we have a conniption over?






There are gay kids and trans kids in our society too. There always has been and always will be. But generally speaking they are who they are despite our culture, not because of it. If all you want is acceptance it is a whole lot easier to conform. Even today.

The dictionary definition of a bigot is: "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." If that describes you then you are a bigot, if doesn't then you aren't.

It doesn't describe me. And I'm not having a connipition as it appears you are assuming. I was merely agreeing with your previous statement. Yes, your right, our society is hyper sexualized. Did I say they weren't? Does "bigot" describe you perchance?

[ken_sylvania]

You responded to my comment with an epistle that is quite unrelated to what I said.
My question to you is, does the school where you teach have a policy that says that, if a child requests to be called by a nickname at school, the teacher dare not mention the fact to the child's parent?

No such policy at all.

We are encouraged to be in contact with parents and constantly hectored because we don't do enough of it.

That's what I figured.

[Ken]

That is the really weird thing about it. When somebody posts about the trash and bad influence of TV, Youtube, or the violent video games you think it's no big deal, but as soon as they mention the damaging effects of the normalization of identity confusion suddenly you get your knickers all in a twist. Conservative Mennonites have been preaching and teaching about the evil influence of TV, the loose morals of Hollywood, and the damaging effect it's having on our nation ever since TV first came out. They were wayyyy ahead of their time in recognizing the power dynamics and sexual misconduct among actors that everyone else wanted to "not see". They're not breaking character to decry the influence society is having on the self-identities of impressionable children and young people - just for some reason you feel the need to pretend this is the only issue they speak to.

When have I ever posted that trash on TV or violent video games are no big deal?

When it comes to the specific issue of gun violence, I don't think the epidemic of school shootings in this country is due to violent video games as opposed to an endless supply of guns. If it was the video games at fault then Japan would be experiencing the same rash of school shootings as the US. That is obviously not the case. And I have said as much here to those who want to blame school shootings on video games instead of the fact that teens can buy AR-15s and thousands of rounds of ammo without anyone blinking twice.

But I don't approve of violent video games or the hyper-sexualized world that this society has created for our children. Whether it is the Disney Channel princess stuff, Barbie dolls, Forever 21 and other teen fashion stores at the mall, or peewee football where the dads scream at their little kids and the referees like raving maniacs.

That also doesn't mean I think a crazed Texas cheer mom can turn her daughter into a sexy little gidget who goes on to the best southern sorority if that isn't who her daughter already is. Or that a crazed peewee football dad can turn is son into a monster linebacker bound for D1 college scholarship if what he really wants to do is read literature or be artistic. What it means is that their kids end up a mess and are taught to hate who they are, and will eventually tune their parents out. And that instead of putting enormous energy into getting their kids to conform to those rigid expectations, parents should just listen to their kids and encourage them to be who they actually are.