Sattler College Turmoil

[Judas Maccabeus]

Are you kidding here? Do you actually know what you are talking about? Are you playing with definitions again? I am using the definitions provided by the "Three Forms of Unity." That is how continental reformed define themselves. Any definition other than this is a definition that is not legitimate. This is what they say they are.

First off, all members of Sword and Trumpet come from Churches that affirm, and require members to be in agreement with the 1963 Confession of Faith. There may be one exception, but his conference holds a similar position. It states in Section 6:

"We believe that men are saved, not by character, law, good works, or
ceremonies, but by the grace of God. The merits of the death and resurrection
of Christ are adequate for the salvation of all men, are offered to all, and are
intended for all."

This affirms Universal Atonement. No one who holds reformed theology can POSSIBLY believe this. Salvation is not limited to an elect few, but is both possible for, and intended for every person on the face of the earth.

"Salvation is appropriated by faith in Christ."

Not by election. Faith necessitates that mankind are free moral agents, and able to accept or reject the offer of salvation in Christ. This is anathema to the reformed.

"From all eternity God knew who would be the believers in Christ, and these persons foreknown
as believers are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. "

Tis would give reformed theologians a stroke. They would posit that salvation is fully and completely a decision of God, through His councils in eternity. The term "foreknowledge of God" implies that God does not superintend the choice, but simply is aware of it.

"Those who. repent and believe in Christ as Saviour and Lord receive the gift of
righteousness, are born again, and are adopted into the family of God. Saving
faith involves the giving of the self to Christ, a full surrender of the will, a
confident trust in Him, a joyful obedience to His Word as a faithful disciple,
and an attitude of love to all men. "

The fact that this states that salvation is "giving of the self to Christ" once again implies that it is not some sort of unconditional process of election, but the actions of a free moral agent.

So where'd you get that we are reformed? We most certainly are not. How much contact have you had with people who hold reformed positions, I suspect very little. I was involved in a ministry to mainland Chinese for almost 15 years, I had to fight to keep away a merger with Reformed University Fellowship. Neither myself, my wife, or the leader of the ministry (From a Grace Brethren background) were "acceptable" to them. In truth, we suspect they just wanted the building that our ministry owned. I also hold Premillennialism, which is unacceptable to reformed theology. The fact that I believe Israel has a future in the end times also gives them heartburn. So now to your position:

<<All Christians believe faith is a gift from God and a prerequisite to spiritual life. The main quibble JM and S&T have with the FOTW position, as far as I can tell, is not that it denies the essential role of faith in salvation, but that it affirms a secondary role for the human action motivated by that faith. >>

No, that it makes salvation dependent on a sacrament, administered at the discretion of church leadership. This discretion seems to be applied by a determination whether one is living a life worthy of baptism. To have salvation dependent on the judgment of church leaders, who can refuse baptism is unacceptable in our view. In our view, salvation is by the grace of God, appropriated by faith in Christ. Plus nothing. On this, I will stand.

<<The Reformed doctrine S&T is demanding all Anabaptists adopt in place of the theology which formed the movement denies any role for human agency in the process of salvation. In its wooden and mechanistic attempt to reduce everything to an algorithm, it seemingly cannot conceive of God receiving all glory while inviting humans to participate meaningfully with him in the process of our own redemption. >>

Faith in Christ is clearly human agency. God does receive all the glory, but salvation, in our view is appropriated by faith in Christ. Faith is clearly a human agency.

<<Respectfully, in my view this is where reformed theology, for all its helpful innovations, jumped the shark. This allergy to the concept of a human partnership with God in salvation is an artificially imposed product of human philosophy that writes entire themes of the Gospel out of existence. >>

You are kidding here, right?

<<It's also led to the fascinating development that we now have a publication like S&T, driven by crusaders like JM, clamoring for the suppression of their own founders' beliefs in the name of sectarian purity, as they advance the exact doctrines their founders were hunted and murdered for rejecting. Ah, the spaghetti-like convolutions of history.>>

Which clearly you do not understand. The principal reasons for persecution were rejection of infant baptist, the first and greatest error of Popery, Rejection of association with the state church and nonresistance. What do you think they were? How are we advancing doctrines that compromise these points? The point is, we most certainly are not, will not and stand on the tenets of the Schlictheim confession. I will ask, have you ever been vulnerable to the draft? I have, long before I joined the church, and filed for 1-O status. One of my friends went to jail, and I was sure I would likely follow. They ended the draft in my year.

Have you ever been hassled by your family and relatives for refusing to baptize your children? I have, missed on many family events due to our stand.

Have you been called into your bosses office, to be questioned as to whether you were willing to treat military causalities? I have, but the rumor mill had that they wanted to fire the few of us which had expressed views that we would not fight. Or maybe called a communist because you counseled one of the young people not to join the military after 9-11? Had some of the "baptists" that my holiness church took in calling for me to be disfellowshipped, removed from office (I was a teaching elder) and thrown out of a church that I had been a member of for 30+ years. (They just arrived in the past year). That, of course, did not happen because my former church held a conviction of individual conscience position.

So before calling anyone reformed, you need to know what reformed really means. I am not reformed, never have been. The reformed say I am clearly not reformed, so are you a better judge than they?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

[jahertz]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

Thank you for the quote, I love it.

And if I call you Reformed in the future, I'll do my best to ensure my audience knows it's done without your consent.

[ken_sylvania]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

Do we have your consent to call you "Saved" and "Regenerated"?

[NedFlanders]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

With respect JM, your demands on others that they answer yes or no and using terms such as telling people they are using “weasel words,” has made it incredibly easy for one to think you are expressing an attitude of what we’d see from a reformed person.

[Ernie]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

Do we have your consent to call you "Saved" and "Regenerated"?

Respectfully, in my view this is where reformed theology, for all its helpful innovations, jumped the shark. This allergy to the concept of a human partnership with God in salvation is an artificially imposed product of human philosophy that writes entire themes of the Gospel out of existence.

Agreed.

I am enjoying this discussion.

On Saturday I plan to be on a panel here at Penn State with an Orthodox, an Anglican, and an Evangelical. I will probably incorporate some of this into my notes tomorrow.

[ken_sylvania]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

Do we have your consent to call you "Saved" and "Regenerated"?

Respectfully, in my view this is where reformed theology, for all its helpful innovations, jumped the shark. This allergy to the concept of a human partnership with God in salvation is an artificially imposed product of human philosophy that writes entire themes of the Gospel out of existence.

Agreed.

I am enjoying this discussion.

On Saturday I plan to be on a panel here at Penn State with an Orthodox, an Anglican, and an Evangelical. I will probably incorporate some of this into my notes tomorrow.

An Orthodox, an Anglican, an Evangelical, and an (x?)Mennonite walk into a baronto a panel...

[silentreader]

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 in which he also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people—were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not as the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Is this passage, ! Peter 3:18-22, (the bolded underlined) a direct reference to the act of water baptism? Seems to me the saving aspect is that it symbolically corresponds to the deliverance experienced by those on the ark.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

Do we have your consent to call you "Saved" and "Regenerated"?

Only by the grace of God, given through faith.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me reformed.

Borrowed, in part, from John Wesley.

With respect JM, your demands on others that they answer yes or no and using terms such as telling people they are using “weasel words,” has made it incredibly easy for one to think you are expressing an attitude of what we’d see from a reformed person.

Trying to use definitions that are effectively made up on the spot to buttress a weak position is exactly that.

Refusing to answer a question that is likely to be asked in an evangelism setting and will surely be asked in a discipleship setting makes no sense. Unless you will be doing discipleship only with people with a significant amount of religious education, the answers given are likely to be completely unintelligible. Great, if confusion is your goal.