Sattler College Turmoil

[Josh]

Which position does FotW hold?

“Baptism is required for salvation”.

vs

“It is possible for someone to be saved before they are baptised.”

See, in my denomination, the criteria for salvation isn’t unclear or ambiguous. Belief in Jesus’ offer of free salvstiin, and then a desire to accept that free gift, is all that is required to be saved. Baptism, church membership, following church teachings like nonresistance, regular church attendance, the head covering, etc., removing the radio from your car, or wearing modest clothes are NOT required to be covered by Jesus’ saving grace.

Of course, we think an obedient believer will eventually desire to be baptised. Just the same as an obedient believer stops wanting to tell lies or to intend to harm/kill others.

I find the use of the phrase “removing the radio from your car” particularly interesting, as I don’t see that phrase anywhere in scripture.

You find it odd that I say things that aren’t in scripture aren’t a requirement for salvation?

[Josh]

Which position does FotW hold?

“Baptism is required for salvation”.

vs

“It is possible for someone to be saved before they are baptised.”

Once again, we believe that salvation is a process. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved.

So, I believe both statements above. Baptism IS required for salvation. "Baptism doth now save us." Baptism IS for the remission of sins.

But since the process of salvation begins prior to baptism in the same way that faith precedes baptism, one can be "being saved" while unbaptized.

But baptism is, and always has been the rite of initiation into the kingdom.

One could also claim that regular church attendance has “always been” the rite of initiation into the kingdom. The question at hand is about church membership (I think baptism and church membership should go together); the question is when one becomes saved, when one is longer damned, which indeed does happen at a distinct point in time.

The position you describe above departs quite heavily from the baptismal regeneration view exposited from FotW in the S&T articles; if you really do just hold the conservative Mennonite view, then what is the disagreement in the first place? I would add that the Jewish custom of recognising adulthood at age 12 was the customary age for miqvah; nowhere in the Bible does it say someone has to be 18 before being baptised or to be considered an adult. If anything, age 12 would be the most clearly spelled out age.

[brothereicher]

Which position does FotW hold?

“Baptism is required for salvation”.

vs

“It is possible for someone to be saved before they are baptised.”

Once again, we believe that salvation is a process. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved.

So, I believe both statements above. Baptism IS required for salvation. "Baptism doth now save us." Baptism IS for the remission of sins.

But since the process of salvation begins prior to baptism in the same way that faith precedes baptism, one can be "being saved" while unbaptized.

But baptism is, and always has been the rite of initiation into the kingdom.

The position you describe above departs quite heavily from the baptismal regeneration view exposited from FotW in the S&T articles;

I'm echoing FOTW's position in the S&T articles which say that just as life doesn't begin at birth, so spiritual life doesn't begin at baptism. Life begins at conception. And the work of the Spirit begins prior to baptism. No one can know the moment that happens.

But baptism is the end-point of that process, and is analogous to birth.

[Josh]

Is someone saved as headed to heaven before baptism or not?

This is a simple yes/no question.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Once again, we believe that salvation is a process. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved.

So, I believe both statements above. Baptism IS required for salvation. "Baptism doth now save us." Baptism IS for the remission of sins.

But since the process of salvation begins prior to baptism in the same way that faith precedes baptism, one can be "being saved" while unbaptized.

But baptism is, and always has been the rite of initiation into the kingdom.

The position you describe above departs quite heavily from the baptismal regeneration view exposited from FotW in the S&T articles;

I'm echoing FOTW's position in the S&T articles which say that just as life doesn't begin at birth, so spiritual life doesn't begin at baptism. Life begins at conception. And the work of the Spirit begins prior to baptism. No one can know the moment that happens.

But baptism is the end-point of that process, and is analogous to birth.

So therefor it follows that one who is not”born “ is not saved. You are deliberately trying to obscure your view that an unbaptized person is not saved. Someone who is not born does not live.

Once again, I will repeat Josh’s question. Yes or no. No weasel words please.

[joshuabgood]

An underlying question here is, for both parties...what do you mean by "saved?"

[Judas Maccabeus]

An underlying question here is, for both parties...what do you mean by "saved?"

Regenerate. Simple one word answer. The act by which God transforms the individual from being a lost sinner, alienated from God, into His child. One is “begotten from above” or born again.

[brothereicher]

The position you describe above departs quite heavily from the baptismal regeneration view exposited from FotW in the S&T articles;

I'm echoing FOTW's position in the S&T articles which say that just as life doesn't begin at birth, so spiritual life doesn't begin at baptism. Life begins at conception. And the work of the Spirit begins prior to baptism. No one can know the moment that happens.

But baptism is the end-point of that process, and is analogous to birth.

So therefor it follows that one who is not”born “ is not saved. You are deliberately trying to obscure your view that an unbaptized person is not saved. Someone who is not born does not live.

Once again, I will repeat Josh’s question. Yes or no. No weasel words please.

I'm spending an awful amount of time here for someone who is allegedly trying to obscure their view.

I'll be absolutely direct.

I believe that some people who are not baptized are on their way to heaven, and if they would die at this moment, they would be received into glory. I am not alone in this belief. Mike Miloni and Funny Kirivulla also hold this belief.

But, Josh is correct (Josh Good, not Fun City Josh), it's probably good to look at what we mean by being saved. I think salvation is more than "who is going to heaven and who isn't."

But if that's the narrow lens we're using, people are "saved" who are not baptized. It happened in the Bible, and it's happening now. Paul was "on his way to Heaven," before Ananias showed up. But Ananias STILL said, "(and this is interesting, because he tells him to do three things, which manifestly haven't happened yet, because otherwise, no need to command them) 1) Arise, and 2) be baptized, and 3) wash your sins away, calling on the name of the Lord.

So while Paul MAY have been "on the way to heaven," he had not YET arisen, NOR been baptized, nor yet had his sins been washed away.

I've been as clear as I know how to be.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I'm echoing FOTW's position in the S&T articles which say that just as life doesn't begin at birth, so spiritual life doesn't begin at baptism. Life begins at conception. And the work of the Spirit begins prior to baptism. No one can know the moment that happens.

But baptism is the end-point of that process, and is analogous to birth.

So therefor it follows that one who is not”born “ is not saved. You are deliberately trying to obscure your view that an unbaptized person is not saved. Someone who is not born does not live.

Once again, I will repeat Josh’s question. Yes or no. No weasel words please.

I'm spending an awful amount of time here for someone who is allegedly trying to obscure their view.

I'll be absolutely direct.

I believe that some people who are not baptized are on their way to heaven, and if they would die at this moment, they would be received into glory. I am not alone in this belief. Mike Miloni and Funny Kirivulla also hold this belief.

But, Josh is correct (Josh Good, not Fun City Josh), it's probably good to look at what we mean by being saved. I think salvation is more than "who is going to heaven and who isn't."

But if that's the narrow lens we're using, people are "saved" who are not baptized. It happened in the Bible, and it's happening now. Paul was "on his way to Heaven," before Ananias showed up. But Ananias STILL said, "(and this is interesting, because he tells him to do three things, which manifestly haven't happened yet, because otherwise, no need to command them) 1) Arise, and 2) be baptized, and 3) wash your sins away, calling on the name of the Lord.

So while Paul MAY have been "on the way to heaven," he had not YET arisen, NOR been baptized, nor yet had his sins been washed away.

I've been as clear as I know how to be.

Once again you obscure what is a simple question. Yes we know that God is without beginning or end or succession of moments, and to him, all time is one. Is baptism a requirement for salvation? Yes or no.
Refusing to answer simply means that you are trying to hide your position. Are you doing this to continue to appeal to people who reject your position?

Only cults try to hide their views.

[ken_sylvania]

So therefor it follows that one who is not”born “ is not saved. You are deliberately trying to obscure your view that an unbaptized person is not saved. Someone who is not born does not live.

Once again, I will repeat Josh’s question. Yes or no. No weasel words please.

I'm spending an awful amount of time here for someone who is allegedly trying to obscure their view.

I'll be absolutely direct.

I believe that some people who are not baptized are on their way to heaven, and if they would die at this moment, they would be received into glory. I am not alone in this belief. Mike Miloni and Funny Kirivulla also hold this belief.

But, Josh is correct (Josh Good, not Fun City Josh), it's probably good to look at what we mean by being saved. I think salvation is more than "who is going to heaven and who isn't."

But if that's the narrow lens we're using, people are "saved" who are not baptized. It happened in the Bible, and it's happening now. Paul was "on his way to Heaven," before Ananias showed up. But Ananias STILL said, "(and this is interesting, because he tells him to do three things, which manifestly haven't happened yet, because otherwise, no need to command them) 1) Arise, and 2) be baptized, and 3) wash your sins away, calling on the name of the Lord.

So while Paul MAY have been "on the way to heaven," he had not YET arisen, NOR been baptized, nor yet had his sins been washed away.

I've been as clear as I know how to be.

Once again you obscure what is a simple question. Yes we know that God is without beginning or end or succession of moments, and to him, all time is one. Is baptism a requirement for salvation? Yes or no.
Refusing to answer simply means that you are trying to hide your position. Are you doing this to continue to appeal to people who reject your position?

Only cults try to hide their views.

I think your question is one of those questions that cannot be properly answered with "Yes" or "No."