Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Ken]

So in a war with mass casualties happening an era before DNA and other medical means of identifying remains, there were a lot of corpses that were buried without identification.

But it was also an era in which bureaucracies kept meticulous records and most of those records do still exist. So rosters of various military units, prisoners captured and detained in military prisons, payroll records, transfer records. All of those records were kept and still exist. So the Civil War isn't some black hole lost to history like the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage. We actually do pretty much know what happened and we have an immense amount of historical documents from official government records to contemporary correspondence and news reports, to memoirs of the participants.

Ken, the guy died and disappeared from a Union prison camp. The family can’t find any records of what happened to the body.
You can argue all you want with your internet sleuthing, I only pulled this up a few minutes of looking for primary sources from prisoners.

I’m much more familiar with the confederacy camps as they lost so when someone questions the winning side’s historical account and my brief look turns up missing soldiers from the camp…

I am simply disputing John Hurt's claim that 50% of the prisoners at Johnson Island died while in captivity. There is nothing remotely like that anywhere in the historical record. Not even close. He says he has documentation to that effect but hasn't given it to us.

And in any event, what we have with the Civil War is not a history written by the "victors" We have history written by Americans on both sides. To the extent that we have anything resembling an official history, it is probably the National Park Service which is the custodian of this site: https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

from which we find that the actual graveyard was maintained by the Daughters of the American Confederacy and has 208 marked graves. Also that ground penetrating radar has identified 267 total individual remains at that site so about 60 graves were unmarked or have since lost their markers. The parks service provides a photo of the prison cemetary



And of the monument to Confederate dead erected by the Daughters of the Confederacy in 1910



So out of over 10,000 Confederate prisoners who were detained there during the war. Counting both the identified and unidentified remains, that makes for a death toll in the neighborhood of 2-3% and not the 50% claimed by John Hurt.

[Soloist]

I am simply disputing John Hurt's claim that 50% of the prisoners at Johnson Island died while in captivity. There is nothing remotely like that anywhere in the historical record. Not even close. He says he has documentation to that effect but hasn't given it to us.

And I am simply asking that you actually research what you claim before you post it

As for Hurt's claim. It turns out that the Johnson Island prisoner of war camp (which was specifically for officers) is actually famous for having one of the lowest death tolls of any prison camp in the entire war. There are complete military records of every Confederate officer who was held there (name, rank, unit, location captured, etc.) and they can all be traced to determine what happened to them. Which is something that many historians have done.

And in any event, what we have with the Civil War is not a history written by the "victors" We have history written by Americans on both sides. To the extent that we have anything resembling an official history, it is probably the National Park Service which is the custodian of this site: https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

There is a great deal of disputed historical records for example, what the war was fought over. You can even read those arguments here and the claims these “enlisted” men imprisoned there wrote about why they were fighting.

so about 60 graves were unmarked or have since lost their markers. The parks service provides a photo of the prison cemetary

You argue and then backtrack in face of your own evidence. You could simply say that your exact claims were wrong. These are not complete records.

So out of over 10,000 Confederate prisoners who were detained there during the war. Counting both the identified and unidentified remains, that makes for a death toll in the neighborhood of 2-3% and not the 50% claimed by John Hurt.

I asked, like you for the supporting account but it’s a family story so I don’t expect formal documents here but it would be nice for a little more information because I’m curious.

[ken_sylvania]

Of course the actual historical record of this prison camp was that was a prison camp for Confederate officers and housed over 10,000 Confederate prisoners during the course of the war, of which 208 died in captivity and are buried in the cemetery on site. The Johnson Island Historical Society actually maintains complete records on every single prisoner held there and every single guard who was stationed there: https://johnsonsisland.org/

There are complete military records of every Confederate officer who was held there (name, rank, unit, location captured, etc.) and they can all be traced to determine what happened to them. Which is something that many historians have done.

But it was also an era in which bureaucracies kept meticulous records and most of those records do still exist. So rosters of various military units, prisoners captured and detained in military prisons, payroll records, transfer records. All of those records were kept and still exist.

from which we find that the actual graveyard was maintained by the Daughters of the American Confederacy and has 208 marked graves. Also that ground penetrating radar has identified 267 total individual remains at that site so about 60 graves were unmarked or have since lost their markers. The parks service provides a photo of the prison cemetary

Meticulous records indeed! How are there 267 graves for only 208 recorded deaths and burials? Almost 1/4 of the graves have no record?

If you are so wrong about those easily researched facts, it goes to the credibility of everything else that you write here.

[Ken]

I am simply disputing John Hurt's claim that 50% of the prisoners at Johnson Island died while in captivity. There is nothing remotely like that anywhere in the historical record. Not even close. He says he has documentation to that effect but hasn't given it to us.

And I am simply asking that you actually research what you claim before you post it

My claim is that John Hurt is utterly wrong when he posted that 50% of Confederate prisoners died at Johnson Island as an example of true facts being distorted.

And I did, in fact, research HIS claim before refuting it. There is no evidence to support his claim. None, zip, nada. But there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I would note that he hasn't returned to provide the slightest shred of evidence supporting his assertions about how the victors (Union) distorted and hid evidence of atrocities at Johnson Island. And how this is a lesson for the Ukraine war.

[Soloist]

My claim is that John Hurt is utterly wrong when he posted that 50% of Confederate prisoners died at Johnson Island as an example of true facts being distorted.

Actually you made several claims that were shown to be wrong by your own arguments.

And I did, in fact, research HIS claim before refuting it. There is no evidence to support his claim. None, zip, nada. But there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

With faulty arguments based on inaccurate statements.
The ground penetrating radar for example disputes a few of your claims. It does also suggest that 50% didn’t die or they were buried outside of where they scanned. I doubt we can prove or definitively disprove John’s claim.

I would note that he hasn't returned to provide the slightest shred of evidence supporting his assertions about how the victors (Union) distorted and hid evidence of atrocities at Johnson Island. And how this is a lesson for the Ukraine war.

He doesn’t always post multiple times a day.

[Ken]

There is a great deal of disputed historical records for example, what the war was fought over. You can even read those arguments here and the claims these “enlisted” men imprisoned there wrote about why they were fighting.

Actually not really. Every southern state wrote articles of secession explaining why they seceded and went to war against the Union. These are historical records. You can go look them up. For example, here is South Carolina which started the war: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_centur ... carsec.asp You can go do a word count and see how often slavery is mentioned as opposed to say...tariffs. Every state that seceded told us exactly why they were doing so. As did all the leaders of the Confederacy in many speeches. It isn't any great mystery or dispute: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... one-speech

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

You argue and then backtrack in face of your own evidence. You could simply say that your exact claims were wrong. These are not complete records.

I claimed that there are records of the Confederate officerswho was captured and held at Johnson Island. And, in fact, there are. The war department maintained ledgers of all of it prisoners and those are in the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/files/research ... e-pows.pdf

Those records have been digitized by ancestry.com and other genealogical sites and you can search them yourself: https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Un ... al_Records

That does not mean there are records of what happened to all of those prisoners after release, especially after the war ended. The 1860s were not like today with metadata following you everywhere. Lots of people did disappear. But if John Hurt's ancestor was at Johnson Island there should be a record of it.

[Ken]

Meticulous records indeed! How are there 267 graves for only 208 recorded deaths and burials? Almost 1/4 of the graves have no record?

If you are so wrong about those easily researched facts, it goes to the credibility of everything else that you write here.

Reading comprehension is hard, I know.

There are 267 graves on that island, of which 208 have grave markers. The remaining 60 or so graves are unmarked. They may have been unmarked or may have lost their original gravestones over the decades.

But that is separate from the war department records of prisoners held at Johnson Island. There are actually 429 volumes full of the records of Confederate prisoners of war held in Union prisons during the war in the National Archives that have been digitized, including the full ledgers from Johnson Island. See links above. This is easily found out if you are on genealogy sites as I am. These records show the prisoner's names, ranks, home address, and additional remarks including record of death. So just because markers at Johnson Island cemetery are missing doesn't mean there isn't a record of that prisoner or even a record of his death. For example, here is a random page from the archives of Johnson Island. You can follow the links above if you want and go through all of the hundreds upon hundreds of pages of records and find John Hurt's ancestor if you want and see what the official record says about what happened to him. Or if you are a historian you can go to the National Archives in person, put on your white gloves, and examine them in person. Not everything is a conspiracy. Knock yourself out:

[Soloist]

Actually not really. Every southern state wrote articles of secession explaining why they seceded and went to war against the Union. These are historical records. You can go look them up. For example, here is South Carolina which started the war: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_centur ... carsec.asp You can go do a word count and see how often slavery is mentioned as opposed to say...tariffs. Every state that seceded told us exactly why they were doing so. As did all the leaders of the Confederacy in many speeches. It isn't any great mystery or dispute: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... one-speech

Growing up I was taught it was over state rights and representation.
Reading those enlisted arguments were over personal rights and I honestly doubt that was over slavery, likely it was propaganda they believed.
Either way you should know it’s argued if you don’t live under a rock. You can argue of course and I really don’t know that I think arguing about what people believed they were fighting over is worthwhile.

I claimed that there are records of the Confederate officerswho was captured and held at Johnson Island. And, in fact, there are. The war department maintained ledgers of all of it prisoners and those are in the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/files/research ... e-pows.pdf

Already pointed out specifically what was wrong with your claims.

[Ken]

Growing up I was taught it was over state rights and representation.

Oh yes, it was about "states rights" too. They were clear on that. Including which RIGHTS they wanted states to have. And also representation (the famous 3/5ths clause). From the same South Carolina article of secession:

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

[Soloist]

Growing up I was taught it was over state rights and representation.

Oh yes, it was about "states rights" too. They were clear on that. Including which RIGHTS they wanted states to have. And also representation (the famous 3/5ths clause). From the same South Carolina article of secession:

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Ken, we have gone over this. I’ll agree to disagree as to what the commoner actually fought over.

Besides, this thread is about Ukraine, perhaps we should move the John historical claims to another thread.