Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
temporal1
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by temporal1 »

Josh:
If the majority of the citizens in those states wanted to be part of Mexico, yes, I think that would be far preferable to going to war.
Don't you think so?

War. hmm. by human nature, it’s never completely off the table, is it?

Population numbers NEVER decide power. Typically, throughout history, countries with large populations have the LEAST voice.
Power is decided by wealth, military strength - by the very few.

Several years ago, lots of “comments” on news reports were urging, “let’s give California to Mexico!” (to end problems.)

California. hmm. huge economy, huge coastline, huge military representation. “just give it away??!” :lol: :lol:
The U.S. “southern” border would immediately (double)?

Government schools. wow. “Calgon, take me away” .. :-|
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Josh wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:33 am
mike wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 am Might makes right
I'm simply saying people have a right to self-determination and the consent of the governed. I do not think that arbitrary lines drawn on a map are worth going to war over. (Then again, I don't think anything is worth going to war over, but that's a different topic.)
Where in our Anabaptist 2 Kingdom reading of the Bible do we read that inherent human right or that rationale for the legitimacy of government? I am asking this seriously, not snarkily. It might be a better way to form worldly governments (at times) but it's not without its limits - nevertheless I'd be careful to elevate it to a kind of right that all humans possess...I just don't understand that kind of language from an Anabaptist perspective.
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mike
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by mike »

Josh wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:33 am
mike wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:19 am Might makes right
I'm simply saying people have a right to self-determination and the consent of the governed. I do not think that arbitrary lines drawn on a map are worth going to war over. (Then again, I don't think anything is worth going to war over, but that's a different topic.)
Putin thinks arbitrary lines drawn on a map are worth going to war over.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

I'm really not okay today.

I keep thinking about the people I met when I visited Donetsk in high school and their warmth and generosity. This entire situation is heartbreaking.

I visited Donetsk with the youth group from a former East German Baptist church. I stayed at the home of the Baptist pastor in Donestk with this family. One morning over breakfast, someone noted that all of our countries had been at war or enemies with each other at point of time or another. And yet here we were -- Ukrainians (former USSR), Germans (former GDR) and an American having breakfast in a city that during the Cold War was a manufacturing center for military weapons.

This experience was deeply powerful for me and I grieve the war.
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Ken
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:28 am
Ken wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:09 am
RZehr wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:54 am
My wife taught some of those same families in school, 15 years ago, in the same community. I think when the little green men adventured into Crimea, her connection were quite sympathetic to Russia.
I’d be interested in which your students today support. Probably mixed?
It snowed last night and we are on 2-hour late start weather delay so I expect attendance will be pretty sparce today when school finally gets rolling. But it will be interesting to see if this affects things in class. I'm usually pretty strict about keeping politics out of class but this might be an exception. I doubt the non-Ukrainian and Russian kids will be paying much attention. The really smart and politically aware student types are mostly in AP classes which I don't teach this year.
The judgment+bias you display about your school’s students (just in this post) indicate you need to stick to your assigned curriculum.
Snow day? This would be a great time to keep students away from gov schools.

There is a significant Russian population in the PNW. They deserve not to be typecast/disparaged on public forums, esp not by those they entrust with their children. None do, Russian or not. Students or parents. Be a professional, stick with the curriculum.
What judgement bias are you speaking of? I said I don't think the non-Russian and non-Ukrainian students at school will be paying much attention to these world events. I think I know them better than you do. I suspect most probably couldn't find Ukraine on a map. This year I am teaching materials science which is kind of a remedial CTE science class with a lot of kids who are basically doing science credit recovery trying, or sometimes not trying to salvage their science credits. And I teach general chemistry which are the mainstream kids who aren't taking AP science classes. There are plenty of very bright and politically astute kids at my school but they tend largely to take the more advanced AP classes so I see few of them.

In any event I do strictly keep partisan politics out of the classroom. Although sometimes we do pay attention to world events. The last time I really stopped science class to follow world events was during the Japanese Tsunami. And before that Hurricane Katrina.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:27 am Could you explain to me how exactly Russia asserting historic territorial claims with the consent of the people who live there is the same as “Hitler” - who actually DID invade the Ukraine?

At issue here is quite a few people in this territory want to be part of Russia. Russia has said they’re going to defend those people’s choice.
Could you explain to me how this is different from Hitler in the Sudetenland?

You are sounding like an apologist for a military aggressor. When do you think a country has the right to use its military to change the government of a neighboring country? Who gets to decide what the people of that country want, and how? What is the Kingdom of God perspective on that? What is the Anabaptist perspective on that?
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Szdfan
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

Ken wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:22 am Are you in favor of giving Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California back to Mexico? Those states all have very large Spanish-speaking populations, some of whom might well prefer such a result.
I used to live south of the Arkansas River, which was in Mexico until the American-Mexican War in 1848. There are families here who changed citizenship without ever moving.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by HondurasKeiser »

I think one can be against the West entering into open war with Russia without having to accept Putin's histo-mythic perorations about the Kievan Rus, and his Hitlerian rationalizations about the suffering ethno-Russians of the Donbas. What does Luhansk have to do with the shelling of Kyiv and Lviv? One can admit the failures of Western Diplomacy, especially on the part of the Neoconservatives and Neoliberals, without giving Putin a free-pass to swallow an entire sovereign nation. History is not determined, either in the direction of Progress or Fall - Putin did not have to invade Ukraine or shell major Western Ukrainian cities. He has chosen to do so and thus has real blood on his hands. I cannot see how any of this ends well.

For a contrasting more Neocon perspective from those of Messers. Hitchens and Dougherty that I posted earlier see:

George Weigel at First Things:
The first fact: This is a Russian crisis, not a “Ukraine crisis.”
The second fact: This artificially created crisis, aimed at Ukraine’s destabilization and subjugation, is one expression of Putin’s determination to reverse history’s verdict in the Cold War.
The third fact: The ongoing Russian aggression in Ukraine is underwritten by a false rendition of history, including Christian history.
The fourth fact: Russian aggression in Ukraine targets everyone, including children.
&
Anne Applebaum at The Atlantic:
In fact, when talking to the new breed of autocrats, whether in Russia, China, Venezuela, or Iran, we are now dealing with something very different: people who aren’t interested in treaties and documents, people who only respect hard power. Russia is in violation of the Budapest Memorandum, signed in 1994, guaranteeing Ukrainian security. Do you ever hear Putin talk about that? Of course not. He isn’t concerned about his untrustworthy reputation either: Lying keeps opponents on their toes. Nor does Lavrov mind if he is hated, because hatred gives him an aura of power.

Their intentions are different from ours too. Putin’s goal is not a flourishing, peaceful, prosperous Russia, but a Russia where he remains in charge. Lavrov’s goal is to maintain his position in the murky world of the Russian elite and, of course, to keep his money. What we mean by “interests” and what they mean by “interests” are not the same. When they listen to our diplomats, they don’t hear anything that really threatens their position, their power, their personal fortunes.

Despite all of our talk, no one has ever seriously tried to end, rather than simply limit, Russian money laundering in the West, or Russian political or financial influence in the West. No one has taken seriously the idea that Germans should now make themselves independent of Russian gas, or that France should ban political parties that accept Russian money, or that the U.K. and the U.S. should stop Russian oligarchs from buying property in London or Miami. No one has suggested that the proper response to Putin’s information war on our political system would be an information war on his.

Now we are on the brink of what could be a catastrophic conflict. American, British, and European embassies in Ukraine are evacuating; citizens have been warned to leave. But this terrible moment represents not just a failure of diplomacy; it also reflects a failure of the Western imagination, a generation-long refusal, on the part of diplomats, politicians, journalists, and intellectuals, to understand what kind of state Russia was becoming and to prepare accordingly. We have refused to see the representatives of this state for what they are. We have refused to speak to them in a way that might have mattered. Now it might be too late.
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Szdfan
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Szdfan »

HondurasKeiser wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:59 am I think one can be against the West entering into open war with Russia without having to accept Putin's histo-mythic perorations about the Kievan Rus, and his Hitlerian rationalizations about the suffering ethno-Russians of the Donbas. What does Luhansk have to do with the shelling of Kyiv and Lviv? One can admit the failures of Western Diplomacy, especially on the part of the Neoconservatives and Neoliberals, without giving Putin a free-pass to swallow an entire sovereign nation. History is not determined, either in the direction of Progress or Fall - Putin did not have to invade Ukraine or shell major Western Ukrainian cities. He has chosen to do so and thus has real blood on his hands. I cannot see how any of this ends well.

For a contrasting more Neocon perspective from those of Messers. Hitchens and Dougherty that I posted earlier see:

George Weigel at First Things:
The first fact: This is a Russian crisis, not a “Ukraine crisis.”
The second fact: This artificially created crisis, aimed at Ukraine’s destabilization and subjugation, is one expression of Putin’s determination to reverse history’s verdict in the Cold War.
The third fact: The ongoing Russian aggression in Ukraine is underwritten by a false rendition of history, including Christian history.
The fourth fact: Russian aggression in Ukraine targets everyone, including children.
&
Anne Applebaum at The Atlantic:
In fact, when talking to the new breed of autocrats, whether in Russia, China, Venezuela, or Iran, we are now dealing with something very different: people who aren’t interested in treaties and documents, people who only respect hard power. Russia is in violation of the Budapest Memorandum, signed in 1994, guaranteeing Ukrainian security. Do you ever hear Putin talk about that? Of course not. He isn’t concerned about his untrustworthy reputation either: Lying keeps opponents on their toes. Nor does Lavrov mind if he is hated, because hatred gives him an aura of power.

Their intentions are different from ours too. Putin’s goal is not a flourishing, peaceful, prosperous Russia, but a Russia where he remains in charge. Lavrov’s goal is to maintain his position in the murky world of the Russian elite and, of course, to keep his money. What we mean by “interests” and what they mean by “interests” are not the same. When they listen to our diplomats, they don’t hear anything that really threatens their position, their power, their personal fortunes.

Despite all of our talk, no one has ever seriously tried to end, rather than simply limit, Russian money laundering in the West, or Russian political or financial influence in the West. No one has taken seriously the idea that Germans should now make themselves independent of Russian gas, or that France should ban political parties that accept Russian money, or that the U.K. and the U.S. should stop Russian oligarchs from buying property in London or Miami. No one has suggested that the proper response to Putin’s information war on our political system would be an information war on his.

Now we are on the brink of what could be a catastrophic conflict. American, British, and European embassies in Ukraine are evacuating; citizens have been warned to leave. But this terrible moment represents not just a failure of diplomacy; it also reflects a failure of the Western imagination, a generation-long refusal, on the part of diplomats, politicians, journalists, and intellectuals, to understand what kind of state Russia was becoming and to prepare accordingly. We have refused to see the representatives of this state for what they are. We have refused to speak to them in a way that might have mattered. Now it might be too late.
Amen.
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Re: Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

Post by Soloist »

mike wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:39 am

this is silly. They are being quick and effective at suppressing Ukraine's military assets. I would expect the majority of the Ukraine fighting forces to be neutralized in a matter of days.

We will spend days arguing and then decide to do nothing other then strongly worded letters, ie sanctions.
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