Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Soloist]

All of the data used to support either argument comes basically from sides.

What do you mean by "sides" I provide actual news articles quoting principal diplomats explaining that Russia was disinterested in going through the actual process of applying to and joining NATO. Probably because it would have required a vastly greater degree of military transparency than Russia was willing to engage in. Even though Putin said some words at least pretending to be interested in joining NATO at some point in the late 1990s.

Whereas John Hurt simply asserted without any evidence that Russia applied to join NATO and was turned down.

Not every question is a both sides question. This is a question about facts. One is true and one is false.

One side is always true and the other false.

The simple fact is that Russia believes one thing and those that listen to them do as well, and the other side believes another thing.

[NedFlanders]

The kingdoms of this world are always false. They ARE both on the same side. Russia and Ukraine - same side. Israel and Gaza - same side.

[Ken]

All of the data used to support either argument comes basically from sides.

What do you mean by "sides" I provide actual news articles quoting principal diplomats explaining that Russia was disinterested in going through the actual process of applying to and joining NATO. Probably because it would have required a vastly greater degree of military transparency than Russia was willing to engage in. Even though Putin said some words at least pretending to be interested in joining NATO at some point in the late 1990s.

Whereas John Hurt simply asserted without any evidence that Russia applied to join NATO and was turned down.

Not every question is a both sides question. This is a question about facts. One is true and one is false.

One side is always true and the other false.

The simple fact is that Russia believes one thing and those that listen to them do as well, and the other side believes another thing.

People believe a lot of ridiculously false things and states like Russia are masters of perpetrating false propaganda.

However it is also possible to definitively resolve issues of facts. Such as the question of whether Russia applied to join NATO and was rejected. Such an action would have left a very public paper trail and would have received immense coverage at the time. Since the actual decision to accept or reject a member application to NATO requires the ratification of every single NATO state. Witness what happened with Sweden and Finland. That was a vey public process that was debated individually in every NATO country and was publicly held up for a time by Turkey. There were hundreds upon hundreds of news articles on the subject in the US and no doubt thousands more in Europe.

[Soloist]

This only proves the point.

You read one side and John reads another. Both of you draw conclusions and believe the other is wrong.

If you know the Russian history with NATO you might know there is some disagreements documented with your claims but I don’t really care.

Were they sincere attempts? Likely not.

[JohnHurt]

This only proves the point.

You read one side and John reads another. Both of you draw conclusions and believe the other is wrong.

If you know the Russian history with NATO you might know there is some disagreements documented with your claims but I don’t really care.

Were they sincere attempts? Likely not.

Soloist, I think you are right on this.

Some of what we "know" is based on personal experiences.

My grandparents and great grandparents knew my ancestors that fought in the US Civil War. They told me about one of my ancestors was captured by the North and put on an Island in Lake Erie. When he came back, they did not recognize him, as he was a walking skeleton. He ate rats to survive. I looked up this camp, and it held 6,000 prisoners, of which 3,000 died during the war, so it had a 50% kill rate. Camp Douglas outside of Chicago is the largest mass grave in the Western Hemisphere, where the North buried all of the Confederate dead that died in these hell hole prison camps.

But that is not in your history books. Northern propaganda said it never happened.

We also know, in Tennessee, that the Civil war was fought over tariffs, and not slavery. But they lie to you today just like in the past, and change history to match the propaganda of the winning side.

Likewise, both Russia and the USA are lying to us.

When the Berlin Wall came down, Gorbachev offered to Bush to remove the 400,000 troops from East Germany for reunification, on the condition that NATO would not expand to the East. James Baker under Bush said that NATO would not move one inch closer to Russia. And NATO has since expanded all the way to Russia's borders, with the intent of putting nuclear missiles in Ukraine, just 200 miles from Moscow.

And we can talk about the Nazi party founded by Bandera in Ukraine, and the Nazis that were genociding the Russian speaking population in the Donbas and Luhansk that provoked Russia to invade. And we can talk about the peace deal that Russia wanted, that the Donbass and Luhansk should be autonomous regions under neither Russia or Ukraine, and Ukraine would be neutral and never align with NATO, and there would be no war.

But maybe all of this, whatever we have heard, on both sides, is propaganda.

Maybe we should return to our own "personal experiences" with this current war, just like my ancestors in the Civil war.

This is what we saw, today, with our own eyes, and know to be true:

Nearly every Democrat and half the Republicans in the US House just voted to send more money to kill more people in the Ukraine and Gaza.

What "anti-war" person could possibly be in support of this move?

How could a "Mennonite" ever be a Democrat, or align with one of these pro-war Republicans?

We, and the rest of the world, would all be "better off" to let Russia have all of the Ukraine, if it would save the lives of these people fighting in this stupid war. And if we did not send money to Israel, they would not be killing people in Gaza.

Maybe we should all ban together, as Christians opposed to war, and say that we will never vote for anyone that supports these wars. Even just a small voting block, united together, can turn an election and get rid of these people that send our tax money to kill other people.

Mennonites "used to be" the ones that opposed the "war tax." Where is that spirit today?

Our allegiance to Jesus Christ, and to the principles of non-violence that Christ taught us, should be superior to our affiliation with any political party.

If you don't vote, I understand. But if you do vote, and you vote for the people that make war possible, how can you look in the mirror?

And the reason your food in the grocery store is so very expensive now, is because of this war in Ukraine. If you don't believe in non-violence, at least vote these people out so you won't go hungry.

But above all, make a public stand against this stupid war. What Would Jesus Do? Maybe that is the way we should look at all of this.

[Szdfan]

We, and the rest of the world, would all be "better off" to let Russia have all of the Ukraine, if it would save the lives of these people fighting in this stupid war.

I don't think the rest of the world would be "better off" if Russia could take all of Ukraine. I don't think stronger countries should just be able to come and take whatever they want from smaller countries. I don't think it's okay when the US invades other countries, why is it okay when Russia does it? If American imperialism is bad, why is Russian imperialism okay?

Maybe we should all ban together, as Christians opposed to war, and say that we will never vote for anyone that supports these wars. Even just a small voting block, united together, can turn an election and get rid of these people that send our tax money to kill other people.

Mennonites "used to be" the ones that opposed the "war tax." Where is that spirit today?

Our allegiance to Jesus Christ, and to the principles of non-violence that Christ taught us, should be superior to our affiliation with any political party.

If you don't vote, I understand. But if you do vote, and you vote for the people that make war possible, how can you look in the mirror?

And the reason your food in the grocery store is so very expensive now, is because of this war in Ukraine. If you don't believe in non-violence, at least vote these people out so you won't go hungry.

But above all, make a public stand against this stupid war. What Would Jesus Do? Maybe that is the way we should look at all of this.

This is pretty much the argument from some liberal Mennonite corners who are active in politics and political advocacy. It's not a non-resistance argument.

[Ken]

Some of what we "know" is based on personal experiences.

My grandparents and great grandparents knew my ancestors that fought in the US Civil War. They told me about one of my ancestors was captured by the North and put on an Island in Lake Erie. When he came back, they did not recognize him, as he was a walking skeleton. He ate rats to survive. I looked up this camp, and it held 6,000 prisoners, of which 3,000 died during the war, so it had a 50% kill rate. Camp Douglas outside of Chicago is the largest mass grave in the Western Hemisphere, where the North buried all of the Confederate dead that died in these hell hole prison camps.

But that is not in your history books. Northern propaganda said it never happened.

One thing we can be pretty sure of John, and that is that the American Civil War was not part of YOUR personal experience. And we also know that the American Civil War is one of the most historically documented wars in human history. There are probably more professional and amateur historians who have meticulously studied and written about the American Civil War than any other war in history except perhaps World War II.

You say that you looked up this Union prisoner of war camp on Lake Erie and that it held 6,000 Confederate prisoners of which 3,000 died in captivity for a 50% death rate. If you looked it up perhaps you can show us the historical record that you are relying on to make this assertion. Because the Civil War history is, indeed, exceptionally well documented. And the only Union prisoner of war camp on an Island in Lake Erie was the Johnson Island prison camp. It is now a national historic site and park and one can visit the Confederate cemetery there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson%27s_Island

Of course the actual historical record of this prison camp was that was a prison camp for Confederate officers and housed over 10,000 Confederate prisoners during the course of the war, of which 208 died in captivity and are buried in the cemetery on site. The Johnson Island Historical Society actually maintains complete records on every single prisoner held there and every single guard who was stationed there: https://johnsonsisland.org/

What records are you relying on to show that this prison camp held 6,000 prisoners of which 3,000 died in captivity? Or did you just make that up?

If you are so wrong about those easily researched facts, it goes to the credibility of everything else that you write here.

[Josh]

We, and the rest of the world, would all be "better off" to let Russia have all of the Ukraine, if it would save the lives of these people fighting in this stupid war.

I don't think the rest of the world would be "better off" if Russia could take all of Ukraine. I don't think stronger countries should just be able to come and take whatever they want from smaller countries. I don't think it's okay when the US invades other countries, why is it okay when Russia does it? If American imperialism is bad, why is Russian imperialism okay?

Do you think it’s good and what a Christian should be doing to fight back?

[Soloist]

Having a strong personal interest in the civil war I would be very interested in hearing more about your relative’s experience.
There is very little publicly available on this prison that has not been edited. There was supposedly pictures taken by prisoner that would show first hand experience of this but I couldn’t locate them on short searching.

[Josh]

If you are so wrong about those easily researched facts, it goes to the credibility of everything else that you write here.

Ken,

This may come as a surprise to you, but the victors in a war often downplay the atrocities they committed and frequently cover them up.