Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

What difference does NATO membership make?

Declaring hot war on Russia means declaring war on the entire unaligned world. Countries like China, India, Brazil, and other major powers are not aligned with Western European/American hegemony and anti-western politicians will gain significant power by trying to launch World War III.

To give you an idea of where this would start… imagine a Chinese blockade against America of both Chinese and Taiwanese goods.

[Szdfan]

"Eventually" is a long, unspecified time.

Unfortunately, Putin demonstrated the need for NATO when Russia invaded its neighbor.

We invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. We caused Libya, Syria and Egypt’s unrest.
Who is the power that is honorable above all? No human nation will ever follow its own ideals.

Of course. Countries act out of their own self-interest. The US and Western Europe care about the Russian invasion because it effects their own self-interests. Just from a security standpoint (without ideals), I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine demonstrates the need for NATO.

But I don't think that because countries do bad things or are hypocrites means that ideals don't exist. The fact that the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't make it okay that Russia invaded Ukraine. I reject that kind of nihilism.

[Ken]

What difference does NATO membership make?

Declaring hot war on Russia means declaring war on the entire unaligned world. Countries like China, India, Brazil, and other major powers are not aligned with Western European/American hegemony and anti-western politicians will gain significant power by trying to launch World War III.

To give you an idea of where this would start… imagine a Chinese blockade against America of both Chinese and Taiwanese goods.

NATO membership makes all the difference.

Russia hasn't invaded or intervened in a single member of NATO in its entire history. On the other hand, Russia has invaded and/or intervened in at least a dozen neighbors that were NOT members of NATO since the end of WW2. It is a long list.

It is absurdly naïve to think otherwise. That is why all the countries of eastern Europe as well as more recently, all the Nordic countries, have decided to join NATO.

India, China, and Brazil are not European countries so frankly their opinions don't matter.

[Soloist]

Of course. Countries act out of their own self-interest. The US and Western Europe care about the Russian invasion because it effects their own self-interests. Just from a security standpoint (without ideals), I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine demonstrates the need for NATO.

But I don't think that because countries do bad things or are hypocrites means that ideals don't exist. The fact that the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't make it okay that Russia invaded Ukraine. I reject that kind of nihilism.

Ideals are true even if the country claiming them doesn’t follow. I wasn’t justifying either country and their actions but it’s hypocritical as Americans to condemn another country living as they desire.

It’s sort of like Michael Sattler declaring he’d rather fight for the Turks because they are true Turks.
I would say though that Russia is claiming one thing and acting otherwise so really Americans have just as much right to condemn them because their leader is speaking hypocrisy.

I believe we are in agreement as to the actions of these nations.

[Josh]

What difference does NATO membership make?

Declaring hot war on Russia means declaring war on the entire unaligned world. Countries like China, India, Brazil, and other major powers are not aligned with Western European/American hegemony and anti-western politicians will gain significant power by trying to launch World War III.

To give you an idea of where this would start… imagine a Chinese blockade against America of both Chinese and Taiwanese goods.

NATO membership makes all the difference.

Russia hasn't invaded or intervened in a single member of NATO in its entire history. On the other hand, Russia has invaded and/or intervened in at least a dozen neighbors that were NOT members of NATO since the end of WW2. It is a long list.

It is absurdly naïve to think otherwise. That is why all the countries of eastern Europe as well as more recently, all the Nordic countries, have decided to join NATO.

India, China, and Brazil are not European countries so frankly their opinions don't matter.

There could always be a first time. Ukraine joining NATO right now changes absolutely nothing.

If America and Europe want to declare war on Russia they could freely do so right now.

[JohnHurt]

Let's put the shoe on the other foot, and see if it fits:

Imagine if the USSR had admitted Cuba to the Warsaw Pact at the end of the Cold War, promised to attack anyone that attacked Cuba, and placed nuclear missiles on our doorstep to guarantee Cuba would not be invaded by the USA.

Then imagine the USSR added Grenada, El Salvador, and Nicaragua to the Warsaw Pact with mutual defense, each with nuclear missiles pointed at the USA - just to protect these countries against "American Aggression."

Then imagine the USSR announced that Mexico would be integrated into the Warsaw Pact, and nuclear missiles would be stationed along our southern border.

Imagine also that in 2014, the Russian KGB overthrew the democratically elected President of Mexico, and installed a puppet regime that would do their bidding.

Imagine that this puppet regime in Mexico was systematically murdering any American in Mexico, or anyone that spoke English.

Then imagine that the Russians blew up the USA underwater pipeline where we sell much of our natural gas to other countries.

Then imagine that the Russians sent a terror squad to Washington DC, and killed 150 people at a football stadium.

Where would the USA have drawn the line?

I think Kennedy had the right idea, and he would have stopped this in the very beginning.

Switching back to what is actually happening today, I am surprised the Russians have waited until now.

[Ken]

Let's put the shoe on the other foot, and see if it fits:

Imagine if the USSR had admitted Cuba to the Warsaw Pact at the end of the Cold War, promised to attack anyone that attacked Cuba, and placed nuclear missiles on our doorstep to guarantee Cuba would not be invaded by the USA.

Then imagine the USSR added Grenada, El Salvador, and Nicaragua to the Warsaw Pact with mutual defense, each with nuclear missiles pointed at the USA - just to protect these countries against "American Aggression."

Then imagine the USSR announced that Mexico would be integrated into the Warsaw Pact, and nuclear missiles would be stationed along our southern border.

Imagine also that in 2014, the Russian KGB overthrew the democratically elected President of Mexico, and installed a puppet regime that would do their bidding.

Imagine that this puppet regime in Mexico was systematically murdering any American in Mexico, or anyone that spoke English.

Then imagine that the Russians blew up the USA underwater pipeline where we sell much of our natural gas to other countries.

Then imagine that the Russians sent a terror squad to Washington DC, and killed 150 people at a football stadium.

Where would the USA have drawn the line?

I think Kennedy had the right idea, and he would have stopped this in the very beginning.

Switching back to what is actually happening today, I am surprised the Russians have waited until now.

You are conflating two separate issues. The Superpower competition between the US and USSR during the Cold War. And NATO which is just one of the many alliances in which the US participates.

NATO is specifically a western Europe alliance (or North Atlantic) since it includes Canada and the US. But it is primarily concerned with European defense and European affairs not the Caribbean or Central America, Africa, or Asia.

The global superpower conflict between the US and USSR during the Cold War was something apart from NATO. It mostly took place in proxy wars in places like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Central America, Angola and other parts of Africa, but notably NOT in Europe. NATO countries might have individually engaged. But none of those wars were NATO actions.

The fact of the matter is that not one NATO country has had its European territory attacked since NATO was formed in 1948. Not one. NATO countries have had their overseas colonies attacked such as Algeria and the Falklands Islands. But not their European territory. So it has probably been the longest and most successful alliance in history. Or at least European history. It is no wonder other smaller countries want to join. And if you are a European country, it is a great club to be in and the surest way to bring peace to your people and avoid conflict on your territory.

[Ernie]

It is no wonder other smaller countries want to join. And if you are a European country, it is a great club to be in and the surest way to bring peace to your people and avoid conflict on your territory.

If you want to join, you might want to make sure that you don't upset Russia before you join, or you could get attacked by Russia.

[Ken]

It is no wonder other smaller countries want to join. And if you are a European country, it is a great club to be in and the surest way to bring peace to your people and avoid conflict on your territory.

If you want to join, you might want to make sure that you don't upset Russia before you join, or you could get attacked by Russia.

That narrative isn't actually true.

There were no serious calls within Ukraine to join NATO until AFTER the country was invaded by Russia in 2014. Which is the real starting point of this war, not 2022. Ukraine did not actually start talking about joining NATO until after the 2014 invasion when it because acutely obvious that Russia was intent on violating the terms of the Budapest Agreement signed in 1994 in which both Russia and the US agreed to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its Soviet-era nuclear weapons.

It was the 2014 invasion that spurred the calls within Ukraine to join NATO in order to deter further aggression.

[Ernie]

An interesting article about how families of Russian military deceased suddenly become rich. It is one way Putin keeps Russians from rebelling.

https://sundayguardianlive.com/investig ... in-ukraine